Head Coverings

[Guest shiloh357]

how about perception? Is that important to you?

"1 Timothy 2:9 (New International Version)

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes...."

"1 Cor 8 (Concerning eating food sacrificed to idols in front of others)

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak."

...just to name a few....

What does any of that have to do with long/short hair?? My position is that God does not prescribe that men or women's hair must be a certain length, just as I don't think that God imposes any legalistic requirements. God does not judge on appearance.

you avoided to answer the question on what you used to determine what is useful and what is not.

No I didn't. I simply explained what constitutes doctrine. The prescription about hair in Corinthians does not come up with doctrine.

to say that you used "proper heremeneutics" does not make it true because you said it.

That is right. It it true because it is true. You are free to demonstrate why my claim is wrong.

So again, when you read doctrine you sometimes interpret it as God is inspiring an author and sometimes you feel as though the author is making a personal statement without inspiration of God? I know that you do not feel the latter.

All Scripture is inspired by God, but not every verse is "doctrine."

Maybe the way a Christian should be preceived or behave doesn't matter to you? But it does to writers in the N.T.

The reason the commandment was given was far more important than just how people are perceived or behave. But it includes all of that.

That's fine if you think that some things do not pertain to the Church of God but i was curious on your method on determing what does and does not.

No, you didn't really care one way or another. You just wanted to pick a fight.

[exrockstar]

how about perception? Is that important to you?

"1 Timothy 2:9 (New International Version)

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes...."

"1 Cor 8 (Concerning eating food sacrificed to idols in front of others)

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak."

...just to name a few....

What does any of that have to do with long/short hair?? My position is that God does not prescribe that men or women's hair must be a certain length, just as I don't think that God imposes any legalistic requirements. God does not judge on appearance.

just dodged the expectations expressed by scripture I presented.

That's fine if you think that some things do not pertain to the Church of God but i was curious on your method on determing what does and does not.

No, you didn't really care one way or another. You just wanted to pick a fight.

not picking a fight really.

You have expressed your case and I have expressed mine (by questioning your case). Let the readers of this thread make their own conclusions.

[BlindSeeker]

For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head

. . . because of the angels.

There has arisen much confusion around this particular verse, as well as the subject matter being addressed by Paul to the Corinthians. All the same, this is still part of God

[Guest man]

If you carefully read verses 1 thru 16, you'll see something that not very many people catch.

I was hoping man would come back and explain this, because if I'm seeing what he's talking about in the passage, I sure don't know it.

I've been heckled in the past for bringing this up, but I'll do it again because you asked me too.

These are the key verses I am referring to.

1 Corinthians 11

3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.

14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

Notice how Paul starts verse 3...."I want you to know". He's telling us here to pay attention to what he's saying. Now check out what he says at the end of that verse...."the head of Christ is God". Keep that in mind as we move to the next verse.

In verse 4, what is the outcome when a man is praying or prophesying with his head covered?....He dishonors his head.

Now verse 14. What is it to a man who has long hair?........It's a dishonor to him.

Now look at the end of verse 15. Long hair was given to woman as a means of covering her head.

Ok, here's where I usually get shouted down.

I think we can all agree that Christ was a man. Flesh and blood, human being. And I think we can also agree that in the time He spent here on earth, He did alot of praying and prophesying. Now here's a question. I don't need any answers to it, I just want you to think about it and do what you feel is right.

Would Christ ever do anything to dishonor God, His Father? If He had long hair, that's exactly what He would be doing.

That image we all recognize as Christ is a pagan image. It's not a true physical depiction of who He is. People may believe it doesn't matter, but I'm here to tell you, it does. It's not as harmless as people are lead to believe.

I know this is off topic but the question was asked. I won't say anything more about this because it's all been said before. I put this up here for your consideration. It can be rejected or accepted, it doesn't matter to me. I know where I stand on this issue.

Anyway, thanks for asking.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ May 4 2010, 02:55 PM)

QUOTE

how about perception? Is that important to you?

"1 Timothy 2:9 (New International Version)

9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes...."

"1 Cor 8 (Concerning eating food sacrificed to idols in front of others)

9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak."

...just to name a few....What does any of that have to do with long/short hair?? My position is that God does not prescribe that men or women's hair must be a certain length, just as I don't think that God imposes any legalistic requirements. God does not judge on appearance.

just dodged the expectations expressed by scripture I presented.

I didn't dodge anything. I asked you what they have to do with the subject at hand? For instance, take 1 Tim 2:9. Paul's point was that women were to dress modestly. You only cite part of the line of thought. Paul's point was their godliness should be their adornement. The point was not that women are prohibited from wearing jewelry or braiding their hair. His point was that their beauty should come from a godly life.

Food sacrificed to idols is an issue of conscience. Paul made no prohibitions on that, and besides it has nothing to do with the passage under discussion.

You can't provide any point of relevance between those passages which you took of their natural context and have tried to apply them to an issue they were not meant to address.

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ May 4 2010, 02:55 PM)

QUOTE

That's fine if you think that some things do not pertain to the Church of God but i was curious on your method on determing what does and does not.No, you didn't really care one way or another. You just wanted to pick a fight.

not picking a fight really.

Yeah, really. None of this has anything to do with any genuine concern over women wearing haircoverings. It doesn't matter at I say in any thread, you automatically take the opposite and you don't even know how to debate the issue.

[exrockstar]

You can't provide any point of relevance between those passages which you took of their natural context and have tried to apply them to an issue they were not meant to address.

it is about perception (and expectations).

if you feel like you're being attacked then that's on you.

[Openly Curious]

Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears his hair long it is a disgrace to him,

whereas if a woman has long hair it is her glory, because long hair has been given (her) for a covering?

1 Corinthians 11:15-16

Does this verse mean that long hair is a head covering?

Well yes and no It is a head covering, but it is also her glory. But in another post I came across this, and I don't understand it myself.

Co 11:6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

1Co 11:7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

1Co 11:8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man.

1Co 11:9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

1Co 11:10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels

Thoughts

For the most part 1 Corinthians 11 is speaking about authority. One authority is not spoken about except briefly in #10 "because of the angels" In this line of authority in chapter 10 goes like-----God the Father------Jesus Christ-----Man-------Women----children are under husbands and wives authority. I have thought this to be strange for a long while.

In Genesis after God had finished his creation he put man over it all to rule in the which man himself was made in the image of God both male and female. In Genesis 2:21-24 you can see how woman was created she was taken out of a man's rib and when the Lord had finished he took her to the man and was said, bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. The man shall leave father and mother and cleave to his wife and become one flesh.

Food for Thought

Hebrews 2:5-9" For unto the angels hath he "not" put in subject the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain placed testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crowneth him with glory and honour, and dist set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by grace of God should taste death for every man.

Notes:

In the beginning God had put everything he had made under man's dominion and he was to rule over all of it. However the angels of God were not in subjection to man. So, if the angels are not in subjection to man then man is under the authority of the angels. According to my interpretation and IMO now you have---Jesus--- angels,-- man-- women in line of authority in relationship one to another.

Psalms 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. chapter 8 is speaking of God's glory and man's honour.

In 1 Corinthians 11 it talks about the "covering of woman's heads" it not only speaks of women's covering but it reveals to us exactly what the covering is.

vs. 1o--For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

See what the Word says, according to what covering is and because of the angels.

vs 15--But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given her for a covering.

There is the answer.......................If a women has long hair it is the glory of God.....................long hair has been given to her for a covering. So long hair is the covering and a women can't cover her head unless she has long hair short hair just isn't enough.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ May 4 2010, 08:17 PM)

You can't provide any point of relevance between those passages which you took of their natural context and have tried to apply them to an issue they were not meant to address.

it is about perception (and expectations).

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "its about perceptions?"

[sheya joie]

If you carefully read verses 1 thru 16, you'll see something that not very many people catch.

I was hoping man would come back and explain this, because if I'm seeing what he's talking about in the passage, I sure don't know it.

I've been heckled in the past for bringing this up, but I'll do it again because you asked me too.

These are the key verses I am referring to.

1 Corinthians 11

3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.

14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him?

15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

Notice how Paul starts verse 3...."I want you to know". He's telling us here to pay attention to what he's saying. Now check out what he says at the end of that verse...."the head of Christ is God". Keep that in mind as we move to the next verse.

In verse 4, what is the outcome when a man is praying or prophesying with his head covered?....He dishonors his head.

Now verse 14. What is it to a man who has long hair?........It's a dishonor to him.

Now look at the end of verse 15. Long hair was given to woman as a means of covering her head.

Ok, here's where I usually get shouted down.

I think we can all agree that Christ was a man. Flesh and blood, human being. And I think we can also agree that in the time He spent here on earth, He did alot of praying and prophesying. Now here's a question. I don't need any answers to it, I just want you to think about it and do what you feel is right.

Would Christ ever do anything to dishonor God, His Father? If He had long hair, that's exactly what He would be doing.

That image we all recognize as Christ is a pagan image. It's not a true physical depiction of who He is. People may believe it doesn't matter, but I'm here to tell you, it does. It's not as harmless as people are lead to believe.

I know this is off topic but the question was asked. I won't say anything more about this because it's all been said before. I put this up here for your consideration. It can be rejected or accepted, it doesn't matter to me. I know where I stand on this issue.

Anyway, thanks for asking.

Ah, thank you for explaining. I just was not understanding what you were getting at.