The Book of Life

[nebula]

Ta nebula..now I gotta look at the difference between the "Book of Life" and the "Lambs Book of Life"

LOL!

I'll start a new thread.

[Ovedya]

Hebrews 3:12-14 MKJV

12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Can brothers depart? Yes they can. Are we partakers of Christ? Yes, IF we persevere.

Interesting that the conditions which you claim exist in the verse by virtue of the words you emphasized are directly contradicted by a phrase which you did not emphasize. So what's the condition of the believer who "departs from the living God"? Does he lose his salvation? The text does not say that. You have to draw that conclusion outside the confines of the verse. The condition of the believer who departs from the living God is being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

[Ovedya]

I guess so, although I am not 100% on what you mean by conditional security.

I think that the Lord helps us to endure and persevere and has placed the Holy Spirit within us as a seal.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.

2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Jud 1:24 Now to Him being able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you before His glory without blemish, with unspeakable joy;

I do not think He can lose us, or that we can be snatched out of His hand. But I do believe we can chose to harden our hearts and walk away and depart from the faith which saves us.

Yet it's not our faith which saves us but God's grace, which was extended to us on the basis of the shed blood of Christ:

"Being justified freely by His grace through the 3redemption which is in Christ Jesus; " (Rom. 3:24)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8)

"Even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) " (Eph. 2:5)

Faith is not the element of salvation. The eternal life of the Triune God (Zoe) is the element of salvation. We are a new creation, a different species in God's kingdom, by virtue of our possessing a different life. This life is not our own. This life was not created or taken by us; it was given freely by God based upon the death of Christ. Faith is the "pipeline" through which God's life is further imparted into us, causing us to grow and mature, to be conformed to the glorious image of Christ, and to transform us in our inner man, removing the element of our natural man, until at some point we will be completely transformed, or glorified. This is a very "organic" process which was only initiated by the legal process of initial salvation (cf. Rom. 5:10)

[~candice~]

Hebrews 3:12-14 MKJV

12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Can brothers depart? Yes they can. Are we partakers of Christ? Yes, IF we persevere.

Interesting that the conditions which you claim exist in the verse by virtue of the words you emphasized are directly contradicted by a phrase which you did not emphasize. So what's the condition of the believer who "departs from the living God"? Does he lose his salvation? The text does not say that. You have to draw that conclusion outside the confines of the verse. The condition of the believer who departs from the living God is being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

How is a believer (or ex-believer?) who has departed from the living God and hardened through the deceitfulness of sin, saved, by your reckoning?

[~candice~]

I guess so, although I am not 100% on what you mean by conditional security.

I think that the Lord helps us to endure and persevere and has placed the Holy Spirit within us as a seal.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.

2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Jud 1:24 Now to Him being able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you before His glory without blemish, with unspeakable joy;

I do not think He can lose us, or that we can be snatched out of His hand. But I do believe we can chose to harden our hearts and walk away and depart from the faith which saves us.

Yet it's not our faith which saves us but God's grace, which was extended to us on the basis of the shed blood of Christ:

"Being justified freely by His grace through the 3redemption which is in Christ Jesus; " (Rom. 3:24)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8)

"Even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) " (Eph. 2:5)

Faith is not the element of salvation. The eternal life of the Triune God (Zoe) is the element of salvation. We are a new creation, a different species in God's kingdom, by virtue of our possessing a different life. This life is not our own. This life was not created or taken by us; it was given freely by God based upon the death of Christ. Faith is the "pipeline" through which God's life is further imparted into us, causing us to grow and mature, to be conformed to the glorious image of Christ, and to transform us in our inner man, removing the element of our natural man, until at some point we will be completely transformed, or glorified. This is a very "organic" process which was only initiated by the legal process of initial salvation (cf. Rom. 5:10)

OK I can see how poorly I worded that. You are quite right, it is not faith that saves us but grace. However, we still need to place faith in that work done by Christ, and I do think you can walk away from it. Using your analogy, if faith is the pipeline... what happens when your pipeline is cut off?

5 years ago I was terribly backslidden and I don't think anyone would have seen Christ in me at all. I had to keep tuning out and turning off that booming voice of the Holy Spirit. Eventually it did quieten.

[e lansing]

I guess so, although I am not 100% on what you mean by conditional security.

I think that the Lord helps us to endure and persevere and has placed the Holy Spirit within us as a seal.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you are sealed until the day of redemption.

2Co 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Jud 1:24 Now to Him being able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you before His glory without blemish, with unspeakable joy;

I do not think He can lose us, or that we can be snatched out of His hand. But I do believe we can chose to harden our hearts and walk away and depart from the faith which saves us.

Yet it's not our faith which saves us but God's grace, which was extended to us on the basis of the shed blood of Christ:

"Being justified freely by His grace through the 3redemption which is in Christ Jesus; " (Rom. 3:24)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8)

"Even when we were dead in offenses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) " (Eph. 2:5)

Faith is not the element of salvation. The eternal life of the Triune God (Zoe) is the element of salvation. We are a new creation, a different species in God's kingdom, by virtue of our possessing a different life. This life is not our own. This life was not created or taken by us; it was given freely by God based upon the death of Christ. Faith is the "pipeline" through which God's life is further imparted into us, causing us to grow and mature, to be conformed to the glorious image of Christ, and to transform us in our inner man, removing the element of our natural man, until at some point we will be completely transformed, or glorified. This is a very "organic" process which was only initiated by the legal process of initial salvation (cf. Rom. 5:10)

All that you have stated is true! however, what good is the grace of God without faith? The greace of God provides a bases for our faith, but without faith, the grace benefits no one.

e

[e lansing]

Hebrews 3:12-14 MKJV

12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Can brothers depart? Yes they can. Are we partakers of Christ? Yes, IF we persevere.

Interesting that the conditions which you claim exist in the verse by virtue of the words you emphasized are directly contradicted by a phrase which you did not emphasize. So what's the condition of the believer who "departs from the living God"? Does he lose his salvation? The text does not say that. You have to draw that conclusion outside the confines of the verse. The condition of the believer who departs from the living God is being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

If you continue on to the rest of that chapter, the writer gives a example of what he is talking about. 16-19 he uses those who moses led out of Egypt. In 19 he makes the point that it was disbelief that kept them out of the promise land. God wanted all of them to go to the promise land and most did not. After all that God had did for them, they still disobeyed. This is the point. It is those who do the will of the Father who get in. If someone who was saved never had to worry about losing there salvation, why is there so many warnings to stay faithful and avoid sin? If it was not possible for a Christian to harden there heart by sin and then fall away from God, why did the writer of Hebrews write what he did? Whay would Jesus say "many are called but few are chosen"? Why where half of the bridemaids rejected? They all beleive the same things and where expecting the same things, so then they all should have been let in, but they where not, half thought they where saved and where not. Why would Jesus say to people who did things that Christians do, like healings and cast out demons, to "depart from me I never knew you"? These as well thought they where saved and where rejected. Jesus said lk 14:34,35"we are the salt of the world" and in another place he says" what good is salt if it loses its saltiness? Good for nothing and is thrown out". Why would he say these thing to his disciples if they had nothing to worry about? Mk 9:43-50 Jesus makes the point that if you are a Christian but you still sin, you will go to hell. Why would he say these kinds of things to his followers if they had nothing to worry about in terms of there salvation?

To much scripture for me to beleive that as a Christian I could never lose my place with God! Yes I know God love me, He loves the world so much He died for it, but His love for us does not prevent His judgement of sin. I will follow Philp 2:12 and continue to work out my salvation in fear and trembling.

e

[~candice~]

5 years ago I was terribly backslidden and I don't think anyone would have seen Christ in me at all. I had to keep tuning out and turning off that booming voice of the Holy Spirit. Eventually it did quieten.

Backslidden = stumbled.....not fell.

Where are you now?

Very much in love with and walking in obedience to the Lord

[Guest man]

Hebrews 3:12-14 MKJV

12 Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Can brothers depart? Yes they can. Are we partakers of Christ? Yes, IF we persevere.

Interesting that the conditions which you claim exist in the verse by virtue of the words you emphasized are directly contradicted by a phrase which you did not emphasize. So what's the condition of the believer who "departs from the living God"? Does he lose his salvation? The text does not say that. You have to draw that conclusion outside the confines of the verse. The condition of the believer who departs from the living God is being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin."

If you continue on to the rest of that chapter, the writer gives a example of what he is talking about. 16-19 he uses those who moses led out of Egypt. In 19 he makes the point that it was disbelief that kept them out of the promise land. God wanted all of them to go to the promise land and most did not. After all that God had did for them, they still disobeyed. This is the point. It is those who do the will of the Father who get in. If someone who was saved never had to worry about losing there salvation, why is there so many warnings to stay faithful and avoid sin? If it was not possible for a Christian to harden there heart by sin and then fall away from God, why did the writer of Hebrews write what he did? Whay would Jesus say "many are called but few are chosen"? Why where half of the bridemaids rejected? They all beleive the same things and where expecting the same things, so then they all should have been let in, but they where not, half thought they where saved and where not. Why would Jesus say to people who did things that Christians do, like healings and cast out demons, to "depart from me I never knew you"? These as well thought they where saved and where rejected. Jesus said lk 14:34,35"we are the salt of the world" and in another place he says" what good is salt if it loses its saltiness? Good for nothing and is thrown out". Why would he say these thing to his disciples if they had nothing to worry about? Mk 9:43-50 Jesus makes the point that if you are a Christian but you still sin, you will go to hell. Why would he say these kinds of things to his followers if they had nothing to worry about in terms of there salvation?

To much scripture for me to beleive that as a Christian I could never lose my place with God! Yes I know God love me, He loves the world so much He died for it, but His love for us does not prevent His judgement of sin. I will follow Philp 2:12 and continue to work out my salvation in fear and trembling.

e

Good post.

I don't understand how people cannot see that.

[angels4u]

Paul knew, John knew . . . I know.

If we couldn'tiknow . . . then where is the "good news?"

Blindseeker,

I agree with what you say, because it is by faith that we are saved and nothing by what we can do to deserve it