Sabbath or Sunday ?

[Guest Rain27]

If you really feel this way, I will respect that, but first, please show me where Paul used the New Testament in reference to his preaching or teachings?

God Bless,

OneLight

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. I don't think Paul ever referenced the NT writings since the NT was written in his time?

[OneLight]

If you really feel this way, I will respect that, but first, please show me where Paul used the New Testament in reference to his preaching or teachings?

God Bless,

OneLight

I'm not sure I'm understanding you. I don't think Paul ever referenced the NT writings since the NT was written in his time?

That was my point. I was referring to your statement about those who only read the NT, and I am not one of them. Yet, I have to admit that I did not see which forum this thread was under when I replied, so please forgive me for the interruption. You are discussing Hebrew Roots and not an open discussion on the Sabbath/Sunday debate in general.

OneLight

[Guest Rain27]

I follow God's Law but I do not fall "under" it.

I live in accordance with it to the best of my ability/understanding, knowing it was given for my own good (like King David did).

I believe it is a gift from God and not a curse. It is our manual for righteous living and it is HOLY, ETERNAL etc.

I believe that Messiah did not come to abolish the Law.

Messiah came to fulfill the Law, he brought the Law to it's fullness, he established it, he made it firm, he straightened out all the confusion and held false teachers accountable. He came to be our sin sacrifice.

I do believe that both of us can honor the Lord even though we have made different choices, AMEN!

The only difference it seems is what we consider to be God's law that we follow to the best of our ability/understanding.

I see that you keep using New Testament scripture to support your argument.

I believe we need to be going back to the foundation of scripture and testing our understanding of the NT against the scriptures of the OT. They should not contradict each other.

I have given your OT scriptures about the Old (Mosaic) Covenant. But you are right, when talking about the New Covenant I will mostly give you NT scriptures as this is the part of the Bible that tells us about the New Covenant.

I guess that is our difference.

The OT does talk about the NC too.

I realize why you are quoting mostly the NT because you are right it explains a lot about the NC and our relationship with God and the Law.

I am just wondering how your case can be made from beginning to end. God does not contradict Himself so the entirety of the Bible should be used to make a full case. I have shown how the Law is eternal and that it was not nailed to the cross. I've explained how many of the NT believers kept the Law. If the OT says the Law is HOLY, GOOD and EVERLASTING then why not follow it? If King David the sinner managed to keep and love the Law then it's obviously not impossible to keep. I've shown that Messiah never broke the Law (if he had broke the Law then he would've been "worthy" of death and imperfect) so teaching that the Sabbath is gone etc. is impossible. Teaching that the Law is not "eternal etc." would be breaking the Law. Paul did not teach against obedience to the Law in love, Paul was found innocent of offending the LAw and the Jews in Acts, teaching Gentiles or anyone else that the Law is gone would be breaking the Law. Stephen was innocent and was falsely accused of *blaspheming the Law and saying that the customs of Moses are changed. etc.

I showed where Mary kept the Sabbath after Christ's death, the main answer you gave as to why she did this was that habits are hard to break.

I am just wondering how the opposite case can be made. Can you show scripture in the OT that tells us that one day God's Law will be abolished, whether for the Jew or Gentile believer? Where the Law is said to be temporary or burdensome? Where it is a curse, in Love? Where the NC is set aside for the Gentile or where the Gentile has a separate NC from Judah and Israel. Where the Law is said to be impossible to keep and that one day we will be freed from it???

I looked for these answers myself a few years back. They are not there, a few loose connections exist but nothing sound. AND those answers are definitely not in the Torah.

I wanted so hard to argue what you've been saying but I personally could not justify my old argument against ALL of scripture. I'm just curious if you can, it's hard to do.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Rain27

[Guest Rain27]

Sunday

I would say neither, or both or whatever day you want to set aside for the Lord.

You can set aside any day for the Lord and He loves being worshiped any and everyday BUT there is only ONE Sabbath day set aside by God and that is the 7th day.

[Guest Rain27]

Sunday

I would say neither, or both or whatever day you want to set aside for the Lord.

You can set aside any day for the Lord and He loves being worshiped any and everyday BUT there is only ONE Sabbath day set aside by God and that is the 7th day.

the 7th day of what?

according to the 4th commandment, it is the 7th day after 6 days of work.

According to the creation of time as we know it, God set aside the 7th day to rest, from evening to evening is one day (and this is still the same in Israel).

Sunset Saturday to Sunset Sunday is therefore the 1st day (which is how they do it in Israel) making the 7th day Sunset Friday to Sunset Saturday (which is again how it is done in Israel).

When God says not to "profane" the Sabbath (make it common), how can that be just 'any old day?' Obviously it was a specific day that was not to be treated as any other day of the week. If we believe that 'any ole' day can be GOD'S Sabbath then we are profaning it (in my opinion and according to the Commandment).

That being said, if someone wants to worship God on Sunday morning at Church then that's cool they have a right to do that and I'm sure God enjoys being worshiped on any day and on everyday BUT it is not THE Sabbath set aside as HOLY unto the Lord, that's all I'm saying.

*****If a person does not want anything to do with Mosaic Law and finds it to be burdensome then it won't matter to them which day of the week Sabbath lands on because they believe the Law doesn't matter anymore, it is gone, abolished, nailed to the cross or that it never applied to them to begin with...

I get that understanding, but the Sabbath Day is still the 7th day, God never changed that fact. Unless He lied, tricked or misled the Israelites (both Jew and Gentile and also the group who we are told receives the New Covenant) when He said it was EVERLASTING a PERPETUAL COVENANT, FOREVER.

God could've easily said "Keep the Sabbath until which time I tell you it matters no more. Hand down the Sabbath for all your generations until a new era when I will amend my Laws etc.

But God doesn't say that!!!

If God is not a God of His word, if HE does not mean what He says then we have a world of problems... What else in the Old Testament is misleading??? The promises, are we sure we've read that right? It says ALL the descendents of Abraham will be blessed... Are we sure that God really meant ALL??? God promises He will NEVER flood the Earth again, is that true? We are told a lot of stuff in Torah. In my opinion, it should all come into question if something as solid as God saying FOREVER actually only meant "KEEP IT FOR A TIME"

In one simple statement He commands VERY CLEARLY HIS Sabbath (the 7th day) is ETERNAL. He doesn't say it once, He says it multiple times.

Exodus 31

16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Rain27

[Guest Rain27]

I am just wondering how your case can be made from beginning to end. God does not contradict Himself so the entirety of the Bible should be used to make a full case. I have shown how the Law is eternal and that it was not nailed to the cross. I've explained how many of the NT believers kept the Law. If the OT says the Law is HOLY, GOOD and EVERLASTING then why not follow it? If King David the sinner managed to keep and love the Law then it's obviously not impossible to keep. I've shown that Messiah never broke the Law (if he had broke the Law then he would've been "worthy" of death and imperfect) so teaching that the Sabbath is gone etc. is impossible. Teaching that the Law is not "eternal etc." would be breaking the Law. Paul did not teach against obedience to the Law in love, Paul was found innocent of offending the LAw and the Jews in Acts, teaching Gentiles or anyone else that the Law is gone would be breaking the Law. Stephen was innocent and was falsely accused of *blaspheming the Law and saying that the customs of Moses are changed. etc.

I have made my case from begining of the Bible till the end of it. The major difference between you and I is how we view the Law of God. You say it is a bunch of rules written down by Moses, I say that is not the Law of God that is eternal.

I showed where Mary kept the Sabbath after Christ's death, the main answer you gave as to why she did this was that habits are hard to break.

no, my response was that she kept the Sabbath after Christ's death, but before his resurrection and ascension. When Jesus died, none, and I do mean, none of the Apostles understood he was going to rise again in 3 days. Of course she kept the Sabbath, to her Jesus was dead and gone. This does not help your case at all.

I am just wondering how the opposite case can be made. Can you show scripture in the OT that tells us that one day God's Law will be abolished, whether for the Jew or Gentile believer? Where the Law is said to be temporary or burdensome? Where it is a curse, in Love? Where the NC is set aside for the Gentile or where the Gentile has a separate NC from Judah and Israel. Where the Law is said to be impossible to keep and that one day we will be freed from it???

You have asked at least 3 times now for someone to show you where Law will be abolished, the problem with this question is that no one has ever said that God's Law will be abolished. What we differ on is what is "God's Law". Again to you it is what was given to Moses, to me it is what is written on our hearts.

To clarify, I have never said God's Law is a bunch of rules written down by Moses.

Question

The Sabbath... God's Law or a rule written down by Moses?

Exodus 16

22 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 Then he said to them,

[Guest Rain27]

I found this while looking up some other information... WOW!!!

Deuteronomy 30

The Blessing of Returning to God

1

[Guest Rain27]

Running Gator,

You Said:

I guess it all comes down to what is God's law. Is it written on our heart or is it the list of rules and regulations of Moses?

Duet. 30

The Law Moses gives is the LAW OF GOD. They are GOD'S COMMANDMENT AND STATUES etc.

Moses tells the Israelites God's Law is near, in their mouths and in their hearts...

13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say,

Edited September 24, 2008 by Rain27

[Guest Rain27]

Rain27,

thanks for the great discussion.

I think it is time to end it though, nothing new has really been said for the last few pages.

I am impressed with both your knowledge and your zeal for this topic. It is clear that you know what you believe and why, and that is what is important.

I look forward to more discussions with you, just on new topics

Very Cool! Iron Sharpens Iron.

God Bless You!!!

Rainie

[Guest Rain27]

So here's a thought that's been spinning in my brain. Any input is welcome.

The Sabbath seems to be a Covenant all on it's own. A perpetual covenant God says between himself and his people "Israel" we know that by adoption we as gentiles can be grafted into Israel which is why in the end Paul tells us that All Israel will be saved (Romans). We know that Israel and Judah are the receivers of the NC.

So what does this entirely separate covenant mean, it appears it's not even apart of what we would call the Mosaic Covenant?

Exodus 31

12 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 13

Edited September 25, 2008 by Rain27