Sabbath or Sunday ?

[BlindSeeker]

But this does not change the fact that the writing of those 200 years prior to Constantine showed that the Christians of their time did not keep the Sabbath either.

Not everyone kept the Sabbath, I am sure, but many did. Otherwise, there would not have been needed an edict from Constantine to ban it altogether.

Good point.

[Guest Rain27]

Yes, the Jewish believers continued meeting in the Temple regularly, but there is no record of the Gentiles doing so outside of Jerusalem. But there are records of them meeting in homes on the first day of the week.

Believers are said to have met on the first day which is true, here's why.

A Hebrew day is from one sunset to the next... So the "first day" is from Sunset Saturday to Sunset Sunday.

By Tradition believers came together at the end of Sabbath which is Sunset Saturday, they shared food and fellowship as a farewell to Sabbath. This does not mean that believers were allowing for Sunday to be Sabbath.

show where this is in the Bible

A day is from sunset to sunset............

Genesis 1:5

God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

[Guest Rain27]

Do you keep every command/rule/law given in the OT? If not, why not?

King David said he kept the Law, although we know for a fact that he broke it.

Your question could be asked of him.

If you did ask him this, I guarantee he would say he happily keeps the Law but he is not perfect and he will not be saved by it.

Can you explain to me in your opinion or research etc. how David kept the Law (and LOVED it) and yet was a sinner at the same time?

King David is an example of the very reason that we are not under the Law anymore. No matter how much one loved it and the Lord, it could not be kept, because we are only human after all.

This is why Jesus came, and why we are told we are no longer under the law.

If the law can not be kept as you state then King David was a liar because he continually said different.

Psalm 119:44

So shall I keep Your law continually,Forever and ever.

Psalm 119:55

I remember Your name in the night, O LORD, And I keep Your law.

So King David lied?

[Guest Rain27]

Are you saying that God's Law is... the hollow, deceptive philosophy that depends on human tradition and the basic principles of the world???????????

I gave you a quote from Paul, you can take it how ever you like

You gave me a quote from Paul to defend your position and that's great. I would just like to know what you believe Paul is referring to here.

What is the

hollow, deceptive philosophy that depends on human tradition and the basic principles of the world????

Is the Sabbath law, God's Law or a deceptive philosophy?

Are the Kosher laws God's Law or deceptive philosophy?

Is the laws of sacrifice and circumcision God's Law or deceptive Philosophy?

Edited September 17, 2008 by Rain27

[Guest Rain27]

I confess that I give the ''early church fathers'' absolutely no authority over the scriptures. They were mostly (if not completely) anti-semitic bigots...

I also reject theology from the KKK for the same reasons, btw

so any example that is extra-biblical is going to be utterly rejected by me...as it should be by everyone

If you can find a place in the scriptures where the notion of Sabbath being rejected or changed it would have credibility.

until then....keep studying and enlightenment will come eventually

Nice

There is 2000 years of history that has happened since the writing of the BIble, why is it seen as a good thing to ignore it?

since when it is a good thing to run from knowledge?

Since when is it a good thing to compare those that died for our Lord, that died to spread the word of Jesus to the world, with the KKK?

no wonder Christians have the reputation we do as people afraid of knowledge and the truth.

Most of the animosity people have about the Sabbath stems from over 1700 years of church teaching that has basically made anything that looks "Jewish" suspect.

From start, Jews have been cast as the villians of the New Testament in Christian art, literature and most recently, film.

Jews have been portrayed as the murderers of Jesus. The Jews have been for almost two centuries, the most hated and persecuted people on earth. NO other single people group has suffered anything that comes close to near global hatred that is expressed against the Jews, and that is historically verifiable. In much early Christian literature, the Jews were seen as an eternal symbol of God's contempt and thus deserved to be the object of Christian contempt as well.

As a result, the Sabbath was forbbiden to Christians starting with Constantine, as well as the Passover and anything else that could be identified with the Jewish people.

The fact that Christians today do not keep the Sabbath really has nothing to do with the Bible. It has everything to do with 1700 years of anti-Semitism that read itself into the Bible.

That is not to say that Christians today are necessarily anti-Semitic, but many do not realize just what "the Church" has done for the last 1,700 years and how that has shaped our present theological positions in some areas.

Good Post

[Guest Rain27]

yes, they were begged to tell them more about Jesus. They did this on the Sabbath as this was the day that they didnt work, it was the only day they could all gather to hear the words of Paul. Where is any talk of keeping it holy or not doing any work or what have you?

I thought you said they met on the first day? How could they meet on the first day if the Sabbath was their only time off?

things progress, in the very beginning, when most every convert was a Jew, the Sabbath was the day that they met, as things progressed this changed and Sunday was the day. Read Acts from beginning to end and you will see the progression.

They never met on Sundays for any Sabbath function. They met the first day which is (to this day) Saturday night. Sunday was never intended to be a new kind of Sabbath. The early believers did not change it. Show me in scripture where this change occurred?

[Guest Rain27]

Jesus spoke to multitudes of people. Where is it against the Law to teach that Jesus is Messiah or to interact with gentiles... Please reference the Mosaic Law to show where this is said.

The words of Peter....You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him.

If he is wrong, you will have to take that up with him.

AHA!

Here's the key

"our law" it was against their law. Many Jews had developed their own laws and requirements, this is like the Talmud.

It is not against God's Law to associate with Gentiles. Please find me ANY scripture Torah, in God's Law where Gentiles and Jews are forbidden to associate.

Again... "our law" not "God's Law"

[Guest yod]

I give them no authority over the scriptures either, but to ignore them is to ignore knowledge. I wont even argue that they are right about the Sabbath, but the fact is, that the earliest Christians did not for the most part follow the Sabbath. This is attested to by history, you can pretend this fact does not exist, but it does.

The fact that you would compare someone like Ignatius, who was a student of the Apostle John, someone that died in the the Colosseum for their faith with the KKK shows your ignorance of history.

I didn't say that I ignore them....I said I reject them. They have no authority over the scriptures

Just because some anti-semitic bigots refused to do anything they considered too "jewish" doesn't mean that they had the authority to change the Word of God.

do you believe that George Washington was a real person? do you reject all of history or just that which does not mesh with your narrow view of the world?

If you really want to be a jerk, I can fire back. I'd rather we not go that route.

You've been given plenty of information that a teachable person would consider and you aren't willing to even look into it. That is pure arrogance, brother.

The Sabbath was part of the Law, we are no longer under the law. There is no record of any non-Jewish Christian observing the Sabbath in the Bible, and there is no record of any Christian period observing it after Acts 18. And in 99% of the cases where it is even mentioned, all that is said about it is that Paul or others went to the temple to preach about Christ on the Sabbath, there is no mention of it being kept holy.

What did people who kept Sabbath do on the Sabbath? Answer: they gathered in the synagogue to study God's Word. Who was teaching them? Paul was s how can you make the presumption that he wasn't observing Sabbath from that?!?

But getting to heart of this question....would you mind showing me where any of the Apostles ever attempted to prove that God exists?

They don't. That's because it is presupposed that those reading the Word of God are familiar with the Word of God. So....since the Sabbath existed long before Yeshua's advent, and since it is clear that the first faith community didn't reject the Sabbath AND continued it's observance, then the onus that it has been made obsolete is yours to prove. Evidently you think that you have the ultimate authority to overule the One who said that heaven and earth would pass away before the Law was made void. That's a quote from Jesus in Matthew chapter 6. (first book in the New Covenant scriptures if you're having trouble finding it)

In other words, if you PRESUME that God has changed His mind then it is up to you to prove that presumptive position.

And you might as well start reading at the very beginning. Genesis 1:5 "and the evening and the morning were the first day"

The day always begins in the evening on God's calendar since darkness preceded light. The first day of the week starts on Saturday night. This is known as "motza shabbat" and it is a time of gathering for fellowship to separate the Sabbath from the rest of the week.

A humble man would look that up before he rejected knowledge, btw.

The fact that someone that rejects history outright would think to say anyone could receive enlightenment would be comical if it were not so tragic.

I could not agree more. Would you like to start sometime soon?

[Guest yod]

Mark 2:27

Then Jesus said to them,

[Guest yod]

There is 2000 years of history that has happened since the writing of the BIble, why is it seen as a good thing to ignore it?

since when it is a good thing to run from knowledge?

no wonder Christians have the reputation we do as people afraid of knowledge and the truth.

No one is stopping you from understanding that there were 3000 years of history before that which also need to be considered. From what you've written you aren't as sharp on the post 2000 as you'd like to think either.

Trying to make sense of the New Covenant scriptures without understanding the foundation it was built upon would make someone quite confused. None of this is a secret but it does require more study than you've evidently given it.

And the schism between jews and gentiles was already happening before the canon was complete as evidenced by Paul having to explain God's relationship to Israel and warn gentiles about being arrogant towards the jews in Romans chapters 9, 10, 11, and 12