A Moral Debate: Why Capitalism is Best for America

[~candice~]

Andy,

Dave, I think the point is that the capitalist economy has no controls for greed, and it has no controls for forced giving, by the very definition of capitalism!

It is left to man to freely choose what to give and where and when and why. Not the system.

No doubt, we agree. Here's the problem though. Whose dark and greedy heart are you going to trust to reign in the other dark and greedy hearts? Hugo Chavez? Castro? Barack Obama?

God leaves it to each man and God judges each man accordingly. That's my point and that's why this system has the most Liberty.

Peace,

dave

Right Dave, we agree.

The flaw in capitalism isn't capitalism itself, but what man does or doesn't do with the proceeds of that economy.

As for whose heart I am going to trust, it's none of those. All economies are going to be, in greater or lessor degrees, dependent on the heart of man. I just think that capitalism is the most dependent on the heart of man, and yet is superior in other aspects such as maintaining incentive and in maximising profits.

[nebula]

No, just trying to apply principle to practicality.

Come to think of it, what is driving me crazy is that your argument assumes that Capitalism and greed are synonymous terms, and they aren't.

No economic system supports nor discourages greed. Greed is in the heart of man. Even the poor can be greedy. And why does one assume that building one's economic prosperity in a Capitalistic way is about greed? You do know how expensive it is to go through college, don't you? And who will fund missionaries more effectively - those that are only able to give $5 or those that are able to give $100+ ?

Try this - which nation on Earth gives the most privately donated (non-government) funds to world disaster relief?

Principle to practicality?A t-shirt trade with no set values attached is more a socialist exercise don't you think?

Umm . . . no.

Did the government take your money to buy me a shirt?

Another one who uses the in offering correction.*sigh

That wasn't correction, that was emphasizing a point.

That's how I use the emoticons - to emphasize a point or express a feeling. I don't thumbs-up when I'm rebuking.

Hmmm nebula.My point is the excess of stored wealth.Excess=greed=avarice yes?If someone can create wealth and put it to good use for God then glory to them.I don't see how owning a luxury car or an exorbitant home is outside of greed.Earning to go to college is fine of course.And we seem to agree that excess wealth should be used eg. funding missionaries and the like?

I assume building wealth in a capitalist economy is about greed because like you I live in a type of capitalist country and see much avarice.The corporations swallow up,or starve out, small business in the name of profit.I live on the Gold Coast where million('s) dollar('s) mansions are prolific.

So, because corporations are ungodly, you would prevent the poor from finding their way out of poverty?

You would rather everyone live in equal poverty or low income, just having the bare necessities to survive, than for everyone to have the means to work out of their poverty?

How will that heal the heart of man?

Is there a single economic system that really does prevent greed? As I stated, even in poverty, one can still be greedy. He just has less to be greedy with.

[nebula]

Dave, I think the point is that the capitalist economy has no controls for greed, and it has no controls for forced giving, by the very definition of capitalism!

By why should a government's economic system control what is in the heart of man?

It is left to man to freely choose what to give and where and when and why. Not the system.

Why should it be the system's job to do so?

And the problem I have with this, is that man's heart is dark, sinful and greedy.

And how can any system of man do anything about that, really?

This isn't a comparison of capitalism against other economies, but rather just a criticism of capitalism [or rather... not capitalism, but what is NOT capitalism, what is left in society when the economy is removed].

Does any government system control greed? Even the poor can be greedy.

[nebula]

As for whose heart I am going to trust, it's none of those. All economies are going to be, in greater or lessor degrees, dependent on the heart of man. I just think that capitalism is the most dependent on the heart of man, and yet is superior in other aspects such as maintaining incentive and in maximising profits.

When I was in college, I was talking with a fellow student about wealth and greed.

I flippantly made the comment that if I made an expectorant amount of money how I'd give it all to the poor and missions.

This young woman said something to me in response that I'll never forget, although I can't remember the exact words.

You see, she comes from a wealthy family. And her family does give much away.

More wealthy people than not actually do give much and much and much away.

But what we in our working and middle class lives don't understand is what it's like to have so much wealth coming in that you don't know what to do with it. What I mean is that it's easy for us to judge these people for "throwing their money away" on themselves. But the way the system works, you have to spend/give out what comes in. So what do you do when you need to buy a car? The cash flow needs to flow, so wouldn't you "flow" more of it with the more expensive car?

Really, it's easy for us to think we'd be "more responsible" and not have a greed problem, that we'd live more simply. But until you've had to handle that kind of cash flow, we could never understand exactly how difficult that is to forcefully live on a limited income and find ways to make sure the rest is given away.

[~candice~]

Hi Neb,

Dave, I think the point is that the capitalist economy has no controls for greed, and it has no controls for forced giving, by the very definition of capitalism!

By why should a government's economic system control what is in the heart of man?

I didn't say it should. I was just defining what is and isn't under the realm of capitalism so that I could go further and say that it isn't capitalism that is the problem... but man's heart.

No government economic system will be able to control what is in the heart of man, ever.

It is left to man to freely choose what to give and where and when and why. Not the system.

Why should it be the system's job to do so?

Again, I didn't say it should. I am stating that capitalism doesn't choose on man's behalf when and where and why and why to give to who. And because of this, a national with a capitalistic economy will be reliant on the heart of man for giving.

In other economies, the system does force giving [taking]. I'm not arguing whether this is right or wrong, merely stating that capitalism in it's pure form doesn't do this and can't do this by definition.

And the problem I have with this, is that man's heart is dark, sinful and greedy.

And how can any system of man do anything about that, really?

Nothing . It can never change the heart. A system can only work on meeting needs... but even in doing so it can't change a dark heart to a soft heart. That is the realm of the Holy Spirit .

This isn't a comparison of capitalism against other economies, but rather just a criticism of capitalism [or rather... not capitalism, but what is NOT capitalism, what is left in society when the economy is removed].

Does any government system control greed? Even the poor can be greedy.

Yes, the poor can be greedy! And no government ever controls the dark heart of man, be it greed or pride or lust or envy. All the system does is redistribute wealth.

Neb, I think we agree more than you realise. I wasn't promoting any economic system above capitalism. I was merely reiterating once again that the needs of the genuinely needy are at the mercy of the dark heart of man in capitalism.

It is why we don't see any purely capitalist economies in the world - because the system interferes to prevent those needs going unmet. Whether or not the system was right to do so, or wise, or efficient... is another day and another post.

[nebula]

4.A capitalist system promotes excess wealth creation and tempts man to greed.A mans greed is not static and can be influenced by excess.

For lack of a better way to explain my thoughts -

How is your reasoning different from Islamic nations that force women to wear burkas to prevent tempting men from lust?

[~candice~]

As for whose heart I am going to trust, it's none of those. All economies are going to be, in greater or lessor degrees, dependent on the heart of man. I just think that capitalism is the most dependent on the heart of man, and yet is superior in other aspects such as maintaining incentive and in maximising profits.

When I was in college, I was talking with a fellow student about wealth and greed.

I flippantly made the comment that if I made an expectorant amount of money how I'd give it all to the poor and missions.

This young woman said something to me in response that I'll never forget, although I can't remember the exact words.

You see, she comes from a wealthy family. And her family does give much away.

More wealthy people than not actually do give much and much and much away.

But what we in our working and middle class lives don't understand is what it's like to have so much wealth coming in that you don't know what to do with it. What I mean is that it's easy for us to judge these people for "throwing their money away" on themselves. But the way the system works, you have to spend/give out what comes in. So what do you do when you need to buy a car? The cash flow needs to flow, so wouldn't you "flow" more of it with the more expensive car?

Really, it's easy for us to think we'd be "more responsible" and not have a greed problem, that we'd live more simply. But until you've had to handle that kind of cash flow, we could never understand exactly how difficult that is to forcefully live on a limited income and find ways to make sure the rest is given away.

Neb, I didn't delineate between the rich and the poor giving, or between the darkness of hearts of the rich and poor. I also didn't judge any rich people, I haven't even mentioned them! I work with VERY affluent people, and I know that some do give. But this wasn't what I was arguing, and I don't understand how your post ties in with the argument I am making.

I still stand by what I said... the needs of the needy are dependent on the hearts of man to give. Some people will give, some won't. But it is the dependency I am arguing, not who gives or what I would do if I were rich.

[nebula]

I still stand by what I said... the needs of the needy are dependent on the hearts of man to give. Some people will give, some won't. But it is the dependency I am arguing, not who gives or what I would do if I were rich.

Hmmm . . . OK.

So, does any other form of economic system do anything about the dependency problem?

[MorningGlory]

4.A capitalist system promotes excess wealth creation and tempts man to greed.A mans greed is not static and can be influenced by excess.

For lack of a better way to explain my thoughts -

How is your reasoning different from Islamic nations that force women to wear burkas to prevent tempting men from lust?

I have no problem with women covering their bodies as Muslims do and most Muslim women do it willingly I hear.

There are many people who would accept standard income too so that the needy could benefit.Not capitalists of course.

The only people who would accept a standard income are those without motivation or drive; leveling the playing field so that all have the same kills innovation and creativity, not to mention the dream of rising above mediocrity. Why work and excel when you already know what your lot in life will be?

[Guest shiloh357]

4.A capitalist system promotes excess wealth creation and tempts man to greed.A mans greed is not static and can be influenced by excess.

Wanting to be wealthy is not greed. The Bible does not condemn anyone for being wealthy. The Bible condemns those who put their wealth ahead of God.

And what exactly constitutes "excess?" How much money is too much money?? Who has the right to determine for everyone else what "excess" is?