Is America the Great Babylon?

[lekh l'kha]

Fiji.

Because why should the Fijians be left out of Bible prophecy?

Seriously though,

Much as I know that Americans don't like being left out in the cold with regard to the identity of the 7th and 8th kingdoms (that much has become quite obvious), I think that the U.S.A is simply in the wrong geographical region, because Rev 13's beast from the sea is specifically described as being "like a lion, leopard and bear" - the descriptions of former Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires in Daniel 7.

The Ottoman-Turk Empire incorporated all these territories AND the entire Eastern part of the former Roman Empire, and the Ottoman-Turk Empire's remaining Eastern territories fell into the hands of the British Empire at the end of WWI. It was then that Lord Balfour, Britain's foreign secretary, signed a document promising "Palestine" to the Jews as their homeland, a promise which later British governments reneged on until 1948, and they reneged because of Islamic Arab protest and rioting against the idea of a Jewish state in "Arab territory". And of course, the West has always needed Arab oil.

Until 2010 Turkey (an Islamic state), has, however, been an ally of Israel. But Now we see a sudden and complete about-turn on the part of Turkey in its policy toward Israel, even threatening to go to war against Israel if Israel intercepts another flotilla from Turkey, and we also see a snuggling up together of Iran, Syria, Turkey and Lebanon in a determined drive top wipe Israel off the map of the Middle East. We may be seeing the beginning stages of a "beast that had a mortal wound to its head" (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire by Allied forces in WWI) and a gradual re-birth of the same former Empire, bent on annihilating "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people".

We have choices about the identity of the 7th and 8th empires, all equally valid:

A. 7th Empire:

1. The Holy Roman Empire, or

2. The Ottoman-Turk Empire, or

3. The British Empire.

The 7th empire, John was told, would continue "a short time". The first two empires above each remained for 1000 years, only the British Empire remained "a short time".

B. The 8th Empire:

1. A resurrected Roman Empire (the E.U)

2. A resurrected Ottoman-Turk Empire (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey, "Palestine" and who knows maybe even Jordan will join them for fear of being conquered.

3. The United States (just mentioning the U.S so Americans don't feel left out in the cold, lols).

4. Fiji.

5. Zimbabwe.

6. India.

7. kenya.

8. Tanzania.

9. Zambia.

10. Jamaica...

(I'm naming all the other former British colonies, because we can't leave them out if we're NOT going to leave the U.S.A out, lols)

Oh yes, sorry Canada:

11. Canada.

12. Australia.

13. New Zealand (they better first learn how to keep a rugby world cup).

So, bottom line (in my opinion), any "identification" of the 7th and 8th empires is speculative (at the moment).

[BlindSeeker]

I hate it when a plan does not come together

Britain had many colonies in Africa: in British West Africa there was Gambia, Ghana, Nigeria, Southern Cameroon, and Sierra Leone; in British East Africa there was Kenya, Uganda, and Tanzania (formerly Tanganyika and Zanzibar); and in British South Africa there was South Africa, Northern Rhodesia (Zambia), Southern Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), Nyasaland (Malawi), Lesotho, Botswana, and Swaziland. Britain had a strange and unique colonial history with Egypt. The Sudan, formerly known as the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, was jointly ruled by Egypt and Britain, because they had jointly colonized the area. The joint colonial administration of the Sudan by Egypt and Britain was known as the condominium government. The British system of government affected the type of racial or ethnic problems that all of Britain

[Guest shiloh357]

Which of those colonies replaced Britain in global supremacy?

Certainly not the US. Britain was a global colonial empire. The US is not a colonial empire. The US does not have near the global power the British once had.

With which one of these could the rest of the world said "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Not the US. Just because YOU think so doesn't make it so.

Which other nation has used atomic weapons on its enemies? -

Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

That refers to a supernatural sign the anti-Christ to cause the world to follow him. Secondly, the US rebuilt what it destroyed.

Which of those colonies have caused other nations to compromise their own political and moral standards for favor from them?

That assumes that other nations were innocent virgins and the "American whore" corrupted them. How have other nations been corrupted by the US? Specifically?

Which of those colonies has made other nations rich?

None. The US has given immense amounts of foreign aid all over the world, but one would have adjust their definition of "rich" to accomodate the notion that any other nations have been made "rich" by the US.

Which one catapulted to global supremacy with the same time of Israel's rebirth?

The US was already superpower, but has never had "global supremacy." Your facts are a bit skewed and over dramatic.

Which other one had been a constant ally and supporter of Israel, but has recently turned to demand her giving up her land for her enemies? Placing her in apparent a state of jeopardy? (Though we all know God will fight for her).

Please, tell me, which one ?

Majority of Americans don't support that, only the Liberals in the upper eschalons of our government. The US a as a whole has not given up it support of Israel.

[Fez]

Which of those colonies replaced Britain in global supremacy?

Where Britian is right now? The mess they are in?

Pick any one..........

[Bold Believer]

Whats your take about who the the Great Babylon spoken of in Revelations is referring too:

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; and the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (Revelation 18:21-24)

The destruction of this country will be so severe that it will be uninhabitable. Not even the light of one lamp will be found in this place. For in one day it will be reduced to rubble.

This one is a no brainer. The Book of Revelation (no 's') uses figures and clips from the Old Testament and from early New Testament letters as well. In this case, John gives a clue as to the city in the last line of the passage. Here is what Jesus said in Matthew 23:

Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

He's rebuking the Jewish leadership for their complicity in the killing of the prophets down through the ages. Where do these people live? J E R U S A L E M. Where is the temple located? J E R U S A L E M. What city was destroyed during THAT generation? J E R U S A L E M.

The writer is speaking of Jerusalem. You can't project the past into the future. Learn Church, I beg of you, learn.

Good point but most Jews live in America then in Israel. So those scriptures can still point to American.

http://www.nationmas...stimated-number

Besides according to Rev. Great Babylon ruled over many nations. I don

[nebula]

Which of those colonies replaced Britain in global supremacy?

Certainly not the US. Britain was a global colonial empire. The US is not a colonial empire. The US does not have near the global power the British once had.

The other things to consider is that all the other beasts actually controlled/ruled over the land of Israel.

Although the US has a lot of influence over Israel, we don't rule or own the land the way the other nations did.

With which one of these could the rest of the world said "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Not the US. Just because YOU think so doesn't make it so.

As I said before some time ago - Osama bin Ladin has answered the challenge to make war with the US - and he and his followers aren't being crushed like the Beast ought to, don't you think?

Which other nation has used atomic weapons on its enemies? -

Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

That refers to a supernatural sign the anti-Christ to cause the world to follow him. Secondly, the US rebuilt what it destroyed.

I would say that the atomic weapon is an interpretation. Yes, we are the only ones who have used such a weapon, but we are not the only ones capable of doing such.

Any nation with a nuclear weapon at any time can "make fire come down from heaven" if they so desire.

Which of those colonies have caused other nations to compromise their own political and moral standards for favor from them?

That assumes that other nations were innocent virgins and the "American whore" corrupted them. How have other nations been corrupted by the US? Specifically?

Hollywood fits the bill.

But you do have a point that Europe fell on its own.

Which one catapulted to global supremacy with the same time of Israel's rebirth?

The US was already superpower, but has never had "global supremacy." Your facts are a bit skewed and over dramatic.

The US was already dominant in the Western Hemisphere. After WW2, the USSR was dominant over the world as well as the US.

[nebula]

The phrase echo basileia means

(Echo)to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as

(Basileia) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule

a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

A proper English translation might well be 'the city which holds influence over the kings of the Earth.'

Jerusalem sat right smack dab in the middle of a huge trade route. Lots of merchandise came through in that day. One more reason to understand much of Revelation refers not to the present, but to the past. Think of Jerusalem as the Wal-Mart of its day. One could get anything there. Destroying Jerusalem meant destroying a LOT of trade and the enormous loss of money for merchants and traders of the day, hence the weeping and crying analogy.

With the great trade though came the gods of the traders, foreign gods which Israel fell victim to over time. Instead of being the great light, she became influenced by the darkness the traders brought. And so in the ideologocal, cultural and religious sense, Jerusalem fornicated with these bringers of false religion and God called her on it.

If Jerusalem was the giant trade merchant you mention, why isn't this in the history books?

But actually, the city of Jerusalem is a bit out of the way, being up in the mountains. Trade routes were closer to the coast.

[Bold Believer]

The phrase echo basileia means

(Echo)to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as

(Basileia) royal power, kingship, dominion, rule

a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom

A proper English translation might well be 'the city which holds influence over the kings of the Earth.'

Jerusalem sat right smack dab in the middle of a huge trade route. Lots of merchandise came through in that day. One more reason to understand much of Revelation refers not to the present, but to the past. Think of Jerusalem as the Wal-Mart of its day. One could get anything there. Destroying Jerusalem meant destroying a LOT of trade and the enormous loss of money for merchants and traders of the day, hence the weeping and crying analogy.

With the great trade though came the gods of the traders, foreign gods which Israel fell victim to over time. Instead of being the great light, she became influenced by the darkness the traders brought. And so in the ideologocal, cultural and religious sense, Jerusalem fornicated with these bringers of false religion and God called her on it.

If Jerusalem was the giant trade merchant you mention, why isn't this in the history books?

But actually, the city of Jerusalem is a bit out of the way, being up in the mountains. Trade routes were closer to the coast.

I found something interesting in regard to the TYPE of trade conducted in Jerusalem.I think it sheds light on Rev 18's mention of trade and weeping merchants.

"To be clear, while Jerusalem was at the center of the local redistributive networks of the kingdom of Judah, networks that were mostly in the hands of the Palace and Temple

[lekh l'kha]

Which of those colonies replaced Britain in global supremacy?

With which one of these could the rest of the world said "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

Which other nation has used atomic weapons on its enemies? -

Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

Which of those colonies have caused other nations to compromise their own political and moral standards for favor from them?

Re 17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Which of those colonies has made other nations rich?

Re 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Which one catapulted to global supremacy with the same time of Israel's rebirth?

Which other one had been a constant ally and supporter of Israel, but has recently turned to demand her giving up her land for her enemies? Placing her in apparent a state of jeopardy? (Though we all know God will fight for her).

Please, tell me, which one ?

Which nation wielded greater economic power in all of Africa and Australasia 1948-1990?

Britain (not the U.S).

Which nation wields the greatest economic power and dominion in all Africa today?

China (not the U.S).

China owns Africa today (not the U.S or Britain).

I haven't said this, because it's a harsh reality and not nice to remind people about. But the U.S has sailed its ship into an iceberg called "completely out of control debt", and as a result the U.S economy has a massive hole which has been plugged with a very, very thin substance called "completely out of control debt".

No country can afford "imperialist" wars under those circumstances. America's on it's way out, not on it's way in. And the future of the E.U doesn't seem much rosier.

What do the Western economies need the most to even have the wheel turn in the first place?

Oil.

Who has most of the world's oil reserves? Who holds the world to ransom by setting oil prices at unbelievably high levels? OPEC.

Who controls OPEC?

In any case, the U.S was NEVER an "imperialist" nation. Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq were ALL knee-jerk reaction wars, and U.S troops are going to be withdrawn from Iraq within the next couple of years.

You're not a "beast", period. Right now you're a bleeding nation, your economy is a dying horse busy giving its last kicks. That's harsh, I know. But Christians need to wake up and start praying for one another and start getting ready to help one another because there are desperate times ahead. America's not in line to become the beast of Rev 13 - maybe if it completely loses its sovereignty to the beast it will be part of the beast, but not the beast. The headquarters of the beast is not Washington D.C or New York City. It's more like somewhere around Babylon or Persia, the people who OWN the oil that keeps the wheels of the fragile Western economies turning in the first place, the people who HATE the U.S, the people who HATE Israel, the people who HATE "the Anglo-Saxon race", the people who HATE the Saturday people and the Sunday people.

[nebula]

What Jerusalem did import ...

11 "And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more

Is. 40, Jeremiah 50 and 51 all use the exact same language as Rev 18 and each of those chapters is a rebuke on the leaders (shepherds of Israel).

There is no doubt in my mind that Jerusalem is the Great Whore Babylon because it is the headquarters of the religious and political whore-system that was the leadership of Israel.

9 "And the kings of the earth, who committed acts of immorality and lived sensuously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, 'Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city ! For in one hour your judgment has come.'

Really? The kings of the earth mourned at the fall of Jerusalem? That's news to me.

17 ...And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance, 18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning,

Since when could Jerusalem be seen from the sea?