Sabbath

[JCISGD]

hi Randolf, im pleased to get you some dictionary time. Its impossible to do away with moral law as it exists because we do. We are moral beings and every choice we make is a moral choice, there is no getting away from it. God does not arbitrarily make up the moral laws, they are because He made us moral beings in His image.

While its a nice sentiment to say every day is unto the Lord, The Lord of all glory wills that one day a week be set aside from our normal employments and activities so that we can rest, recieve teaching and join in fellowship and corporate worship. Where "two or three are gathered in my name" is an powerful moral influence among society if the church is for holy living in word and in deed.

How many home groups have enough people for some to be Apostles, some Prophets, some Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers?

There are valid moral reasons why persons may not meet on a regular or any day, but its not true that we are free to avoid keeping a sabbath for selfish reasons. Love constrains us to meet not just for our needs, but the needs of our neighbour and the commandment to love God with all of our heart, mind and soul, and if we do not love our neighbour who we can see we do not love God, even though we worship 10 hrs a day in our bedroom.

Its funny that Jesus said His commandments must be followed, yet some think there are none or that love has no commandments. Who would say that we no longer need to keep the other nine commandments? yet some think the 6th has been removed, this is antimonian thinking.

The letter of the law (sabbath is a saturday for the Jews) can be changed but never the spirit of the law (man needs a sabbath for moral reasons)

IMO.

[Guest LadyC]

ya know, maybe i have the wrong impression of what ya'lls interpretation of keeping the sabbath is.

if your idea of keeping the sabbath is having a day set aside to spend in fellowship and worship, i think the majority of us here do go to church.

but that certainly isn't the biblical application of keeping the sabbath.... which of course is to do no work, cook no food, wash no laundry, mop no floors, buy nothing, sell nothing, and stay within however many yards from your own front door the hebrews were required to remain in. most people violate the sabbath law just in travelling the distance it takes to go to church. and anyone who teaches sunday school, runs the sound board, sings on the worship team, oversees the nursery, delivers a sermon, etc., is absolutely violating the sabbath law.

if by keeping the sabbath, ya'll mean just having a day of rest, there again, the majority of people here do not work 7 days a week! most enjoy at least one, usually 2 or even 3, days of rest each week.

if by keeping the sabbath, you mean to have a day off from work in which you worship, fellowship, and/or spend time in communion with God, then the majority here probably also do that.

but according to the biblical definition of keeping the sabbath, we are not required, and many scriptures have been provided for that.

by the way... keeping the sabbath isn't about doing it out of love for God. the sabbath wasn't created for God's benefit. it was created for ours. (that's in the second chapter of mark if anyone's curious.)

randolf, it's nice to meet you. please recognize and understand that this is a forum for freely exchanging thoughts, ideas, etc. nobody hear is in a teaching position, and no woman here violates the biblical principal of not teaching men or of not having authority over a man... because none of us have any authority over any you guys, and we aren't your teachers. but if a woman should ever happen to say something that you might happen to learn from, you would certainly not be in sin.

[Joshua-777]

Josh..I was re reading your posts mate and noticed in #7 you made reference to Isaiah 66 showing the Sabbath will exist in the new earth/heavens?

Is this new earth and heavens the same as the new heaven and earth mentioned in the Nt? I ask because in Isaiah the new heaven and earth still has birth and death.

Isa 65:20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isa 65:23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.

Can you explain this?

Honestly, I read that a while ago, not sure about that verse. Because when we are with Jesus, there will be no more death. It could be relative to their understanding at that time, but not exactly sure.

Could it possibly be describing the 1000 year reign? This would make the new heavens and earth here different than the ones in the Nt.

I think it is talking about His thousand year reign, Could be those outside Jerusalem, because those inside will reign with Jesus, and there are many promises that there will be no death. 1 Corinthians 15:54-55 But in Revelation 20 Hades and death is thrown into the lake of fire, after the millennial kingdom. In Zechariah 14 makes it clear that not all those who come against Jerusalem will parish, and Jesus is going to be strict over them.

[Joshua-777]

JC, i believe you and i have had many impasses before, so this one is no surprise either. we are not biblically required to keep the sabbath. and in truth, not one person who claims to, does so, according to the law anyway.

but you do well in observing the sabbath according to your interpretation of the law, and you are not sinning for doing so!

and i do well in not observing the sabbath according to (any) interpretation of the law, and i am not sinning for NOT doing so!

for if you were to stop observing the sabbath because i or anyone else here convinced you it was unnecessary, that would be to cause you to sin. just as, if i or anyone else here were to start observing the sabbath because you or someone else convinced us we should (and not because of our own personal convictions that come from the Holy Spirit) then that would be to cause us to sin.

now, i don't expect for you to agree with me on this, if for no other reason than because i am a woman and you don't believe women have the right to "teach". (please forgive me if i am confusing you with someone else, but i'm pretty certain you are the one who has told me that clearly in the past.) but i do hope that you will agree to disagree and refrain from debating it further with me... because neither of us will change the other's minds, and we must both do what is right according to our relationship with God.

hi LadyC, yep agree to disagree, please dont make comments on my posts if you dont want replies or willing to look at proofs made available. I posted my reasons and you did not address them, other than to repost what you already believe.

Lovers of truth will look honestly into all claims no matter how disagreeable, how else can we be corrected? You are right i do not think a women should teach a man based on scripture, but i cant stop you trying and i dont take offence.

i had actually thought i was replying to josh777, not to you, or i wouldn't have bothered. i should have been paying more attention. but don't call the kettle black, ok? i need no other proofs other than what is written directly in scripture, and i provided it.

Hi, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have never debated if women have the right to teach or not with you, lol and if we did debate that I think I'd be on your side. I think this is the first time I've actually debated with you. oh I changed my name, my original name on here was josh-13 if thats where the confusion is. And I agree to disagree on this subject, me personally I have been on both sides of the Sabbath argument, I choose to keep it by observing it to our Messiah, and giving the whole day to rest, It has been a blessing for me, and I have found much deeper intimacy with the Lord in my personal life through observing the day unto Him. Also it's the first thing God blessed and sanctified, I have seen no scriptural evidence He took His blessing and sanctification off of that day. I don't really get into the regulations of it, it's a heart and spiritual matter for me. I love Jesus, and I use the Sabbath to give the whole day to Him.

Anyways Live by your convictions and seek His Spirit in all things, I believe that if the Sabbath is a grudging obligation then it's impossible to keep it anyways. All things must be done in love.

God bless!

[sheya joie]

most people violate the sabbath law just in travelling the distance it takes to go to church. and anyone who teaches sunday school, runs the sound board, sings on the worship team, oversees the nursery, delivers a sermon, etc., is absolutely violating the sabbath law.

Thought of this when I read the above:

Matt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

For what it's worth.

[UncleAbee]

Was the sabbath given to Christians or is the sabbath binding on Christians?

The Sabbath was first established for God only (Gen 2:3). It was never commanded to Adam, Eve, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. It was first given as a commandment to the Israelites through Moses (Exodus 16:29-30). It was later reiterated in the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:10). Who were the 10 commandments law given to? It was given only to Moses and the Israelites. Exodus 34:27-28 says - Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. What does this mean? This means that for Gentiles the law of the 10 C's never applied to them. ACtually the entire OT is not for Gentiles to use to create laws. The OT is a covenant between God and the Israelites. Gentiles were not included until Christ went to the cross. Eph 2:12-13 says - 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.. The OT law was never for Gentiles. The 10 C's were never for Gentiles. The OT is not for Gentiles. This does not mean that we can't better understand God's nature through reading how He dealt with Israel. It does mean we are not to make laws for spiritual practice from the OT. The OT law in any aspect was never applicable to Gentiles.

After the coming of Christ Israel was released from the OT law (Galatians 3:21-29). The law became a tutor. Christ released them from the tutor. The tutor is no longer needed.

What is important today? What is important is Christ. Observing days or times are not important. Physical locations are not important. What is important is what did Christ ask you to do? This is what we need to uncover.

[Joshua-777]

Was the sabbath given to Christians or is the sabbath binding on Christians?

The Sabbath was first established for God only (Gen 2:3). It was never commanded to Adam, Eve, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. It was first given as a commandment to the Israelites through Moses (Exodus 16:29-30). It was later reiterated in the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:10). Who were the 10 commandments law given to? It was given only to Moses and the Israelites. Exodus 34:27-28 says - Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. What does this mean? This means that for Gentiles the law of the 10 C's never applied to them. ACtually the entire OT is not for Gentiles to use to create laws. The OT is a covenant between God and the Israelites. Gentiles were not included until Christ went to the cross. Eph 2:12-13 says - 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.. The OT law was never for Gentiles. The 10 C's were never for Gentiles. The OT is not for Gentiles. This does not mean that we can't better understand God's nature through reading how He dealt with Israel. It does mean we are not to make laws for spiritual practice from the OT. The OT law in any aspect was never applicable to Gentiles.

After the coming of Christ Israel was released from the OT law (Galatians 3:21-29). The law became a tutor. Christ released them from the tutor. The tutor is no longer needed.

What is important today? What is important is Christ. Observing days or times are not important. Physical locations are not important. What is important is what did Christ ask you to do? This is what we need to uncover.

Here I'm not trying to debate the sabbath issue, but the law in general and the relevance of the Old testament, and the commandments. I also am in no way trying to appear legalistic, We are saved only by the blood of Jesus.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

I agree with you what is important is Christ, He is the Messiah, but if we did not have a law, we would not need a Savior. The Law reveals what sin is. As what Paul says.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Also Jesus Himself taught the law

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

Another thing to keep in mind, when this verse was written, there was no new testament, only the old.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now it is very important that we do not exclude the law, because the law reveals what sin is, God is righteous and just, and we must understand His wrath is coming against the sons of disobedience. We are free in Christ, but without Christ we are condemned by that law, so we are to not exclude it giving excuse for sin.

Another minor thing, Gentiles did still have a chance of being preserved for Salvation, no one was saved, not even the Jews then. Because the blood of animals could not remove sin, they where preserved waiting for Jesus. But Gentiles if they where circumcised and partook in the passover lamb, they became citizens of Israel and became part of the same covenant.

Exodus 12:48-49 If a foreigner staying with you wants to observe ADONAI's Pesach, all his males must be circumcised. Then he may take part and observe it; he will be like a citizen of the land. But no uncircumcised person is to eat it. 49 The same teaching is to apply equally to the citizen and to the foreigner living among you.

In the same way Jesus is the passover lamb, and we circumcise our hearts when we partake of Him and become a member of His Kingdom.

The old testament is fulfilled in Jesus, but that does not mean that gentiles should exclude it.

1. From the beginning, God reveals His wrath comes upon wickedness, and God will punish unrighteousness, and He has promised to provide a way of salvation. To understand His plan for man kind, You have to have an understanding of what He has promised, and what spoke through the prophets. Same with understanding biblical prophecy, You cannot understand Revelation by excluding the prophets. You cannot understand what Jesus fulfilled without seeing the prophecies concerning those fulfillments. We know by the Old testament and the new that He is coming, and the Whole bible gives a clear picture of the events that will take place.

2. In letters written to the gentiles, they have quoted the old testament, in teaching and correcting the "gentile Churches" 1 Corinthians 9:9/ Deuteronomy 25:4, Also in showing fulfilled prophecies, and giving hope for future promises. 2 Corinthians 2:9

3. We are not under the law, but sin still leads to death. What is an abomination to God then is still an abomination to Him. God is the same yesterday, as He is today. We are free from sin, and no longer under the law, but the law is still Holy and still reveals what Sin is. If we live for Christ then we must keep ourselves Holy, and must abstain from sin.

Now Here is what Jesus said. and after He said this He mentions murder, adultery, divorce, ect. All issues of the law, He did not remove the law, but made it actually harsher by revealing these sins start at the heart. The 10cs Reveal what sin is.

Matthew 5:17-20

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

but as we see in Romans 13:8 The law is fulfilled in love.

Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law

Now Love is the fulfillment of Torah, Love is not lawless.

1 John 2:3

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

7 Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning. 8 Again, a new commandment I write to you, which thing is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away, and the true light is already shining.

[Guest LadyC]

JC, i believe you and i have had many impasses before, so this one is no surprise either. we are not biblically required to keep the sabbath. and in truth, not one person who claims to, does so, according to the law anyway.

but you do well in observing the sabbath according to your interpretation of the law, and you are not sinning for doing so!

and i do well in not observing the sabbath according to (any) interpretation of the law, and i am not sinning for NOT doing so!

for if you were to stop observing the sabbath because i or anyone else here convinced you it was unnecessary, that would be to cause you to sin. just as, if i or anyone else here were to start observing the sabbath because you or someone else convinced us we should (and not because of our own personal convictions that come from the Holy Spirit) then that would be to cause us to sin.

now, i don't expect for you to agree with me on this, if for no other reason than because i am a woman and you don't believe women have the right to "teach". (please forgive me if i am confusing you with someone else, but i'm pretty certain you are the one who has told me that clearly in the past.) but i do hope that you will agree to disagree and refrain from debating it further with me... because neither of us will change the other's minds, and we must both do what is right according to our relationship with God.

hi LadyC, yep agree to disagree, please dont make comments on my posts if you dont want replies or willing to look at proofs made available. I posted my reasons and you did not address them, other than to repost what you already believe.

Lovers of truth will look honestly into all claims no matter how disagreeable, how else can we be corrected? You are right i do not think a women should teach a man based on scripture, but i cant stop you trying and i dont take offence.

i had actually thought i was replying to josh777, not to you, or i wouldn't have bothered. i should have been paying more attention. but don't call the kettle black, ok? i need no other proofs other than what is written directly in scripture, and i provided it.

Hi, I think you are confusing me with someone else. I have never debated if women have the right to teach or not with you, lol and if we did debate that I think I'd be on your side. I think this is the first time I've actually debated with you. oh I changed my name, my original name on here was josh-13 if thats where the confusion is. And I agree to disagree on this subject, me personally I have been on both sides of the Sabbath argument, I choose to keep it by observing it to our Messiah, and giving the whole day to rest, It has been a blessing for me, and I have found much deeper intimacy with the Lord in my personal life through observing the day unto Him. Also it's the first thing God blessed and sanctified, I have seen no scriptural evidence He took His blessing and sanctification off of that day. I don't really get into the regulations of it, it's a heart and spiritual matter for me. I love Jesus, and I use the Sabbath to give the whole day to Him.

Anyways Live by your convictions and seek His Spirit in all things, I believe that if the Sabbath is a grudging obligation then it's impossible to keep it anyways. All things must be done in love.

God bless!

oh no, josh! i meant my original response in this thread, i was thinking i was writing to you... i know you never debated the woman teaching thing with me, i brought that up after jcisgd responded to me, simply to indicate why i wouldn't have responded had i been paying more attention to who i was responding to!

i know, i just made that as clear as mud.

[Guest LadyC]

Was the sabbath given to Christians or is the sabbath binding on Christians?

The Sabbath was first established for God only (Gen 2:3). It was never commanded to Adam, Eve, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. It was first given as a commandment to the Israelites through Moses (Exodus 16:29-30). It was later reiterated in the 10 commandments (Exodus 20:10). Who were the 10 commandments law given to? It was given only to Moses and the Israelites. Exodus 34:27-28 says - Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. What does this mean? This means that for Gentiles the law of the 10 C's never applied to them. ACtually the entire OT is not for Gentiles to use to create laws. The OT is a covenant between God and the Israelites. Gentiles were not included until Christ went to the cross. Eph 2:12-13 says - 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.. The OT law was never for Gentiles. The 10 C's were never for Gentiles. The OT is not for Gentiles. This does not mean that we can't better understand God's nature through reading how He dealt with Israel. It does mean we are not to make laws for spiritual practice from the OT. The OT law in any aspect was never applicable to Gentiles.

After the coming of Christ Israel was released from the OT law (Galatians 3:21-29). The law became a tutor. Christ released them from the tutor. The tutor is no longer needed.

What is important today? What is important is Christ. Observing days or times are not important. Physical locations are not important. What is important is what did Christ ask you to do? This is what we need to uncover.

amen!

[Joshua-777]

I can understand those who struggle with the idea of the a sabbath day change, i too was concerned and ready to observe saturday if it was the truth. A lover of truth must consider every arguement and proof and not just settle on preference or tradition.

Im posting this link as it proved to me that God did change the day and why. But also i want to say that scripture supports any day as a sabbath and none should judge another in what day they observe. Remember our Pastors and Priests work on the day we rest, and they out of necessity rest on a different day.

May God bless this to the edification of all.

http://www.charlesfinney.com/finney/finney.php?op=125

the point is (and the question was) the sabbath was a command given to the jews, not to the gentiles. once Christ came and died on the cross and was resurrected, He fulfilled the law. we are not required to obey the sabbath, and there's not a single one of us who do... because if we do, then we have to observe every single bit of the sabbath law, as fez said. and this isn't just about gentiles, it applies also to any believer in Christ Jesus, jew or gentile alike.

the only commandment we are now required to obey in that sense is the one to love God and one another. that command covers all of the 10 commandments aside from the sabbath.

romans 13:

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments,