Justin Martyr AD151- re sunday fellowship

[Joshua-777]

Anita- early church history shows they all met on the first day, this disproves the charge that Constantine changed it. He did make it an official day of rest, but thats not the same as changing it.

Joshua- the bible often uses figurative language and hyperbole. In light of the acccepted fact that we will not keep certain days in heaven, common sense therefore proves that the use of "forever" does not reach into eternity in this usage.

This Post is about the historical proof of what the earliest church did, and so far no one has proved otherrwise. Anyone who discounts recorded history has very little proof of anything imo, the bible itself is a historical library of books that is verified by the same methods we verify other historical records.

As far as Historical proof about what the church did, There is biblical evidence that the church observed the Sabbath. Lets examine both sides from the bible. I have found many verses saying they gathered together on Shabbat and preached, but I have not found a single verse saying they preached on the first day of the week.

Acts 13:42-44

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17 shows Pauls custom was to teach on the Sabbath

Acts 17:1-4

1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.

Acts 18:4

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Also Jesus' custom to teach on the Sabbath.

Luke 4:16

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Now lets look at the two verses about the first day of the week.

Here was the first day of the week, the disciples came together to break bread, It does not say they worshiped, or took communion, just that they broke bread together. Paul was also ready to depart the next day, so that could be a reason why they broke bread that day. No where biblically does it say they took communion every sunday.

Acts 20:7

7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

The other verse, Paul wasn't there, He was instructing them to lay something aside so that there will be no collections when he came. This verse no where near shows that the church observed sunday as the day of the Lord. This verse simply was Paul saying get everything ready sunday so there will be no work when I come.

1 Corinthians 16:2

2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Now I honestly do not see any biblical evidence for the Lords day being the first day of the week. Scripturally it still looks like sabbath is His day.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

I found an article about this that has some good opposing reasons to the sabbath being the day the church gathered. Please check it out.

My link

[JCISGD]

As far as Historical proof about what the church did, There is biblical evidence that the church observed the Sabbath. Lets examine both sides from the bible. I have found many verses saying they gathered together on Shabbat and preached, but I have not found a single verse saying they preached on the first day of the week.

Acts 13:42-44

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17 shows Pauls custom was to teach on the Sabbath

Acts 17:1-4

1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ. 4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.

Acts 18:4

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

Also Jesus' custom to teach on the Sabbath.

Luke 4:16

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Now lets look at the two verses about the first day of the week.

Here was the first day of the week, the disciples came together to break bread, It does not say they worshiped, or took communion, just that they broke bread together. Paul was also ready to depart the next day, so that could be a reason why they broke bread that day. No where biblically does it say they took communion every sunday.

Acts 20:7

7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

The other verse, Paul wasn't there, He was instructing them to lay something aside so that there will be no collections when he came. This verse no where near shows that the church observed sunday as the day of the Lord. This verse simply was Paul saying get everything ready sunday so there will be no work when I come.

1 Corinthians 16:2

2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

Now I honestly do not see any biblical evidence for the Lords day being the first day of the week. Scripturally it still looks like sabbath is His day.

Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lords Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

I found an article about this that has some good opposing reasons to the sabbath being the day the church gathered. Please check it out.

My link

My point is that beccause there is possible biblical support for both, the actual early church history clears this up. These are not men distanced by the Apostles too far. I think it was Iraneous? who was a disciple of John, and others learnt of his teachiings and so on.

Of course Jesus kept the sabbbath, He had not yet been crucified and risen to bring in the new covenant. He also worked on the sabbath as do the Priests who minister in the synagogues.

It is not denied that Paul preached in the synagogues, but its clear that he was often thrown out, and when he was recieved it was to the unsaved that he was preaching as they asked him back to expound more on these new things?

In the churches i know communion is breaking bread, and its seen as kept for intimate fellowship between believers. It would not be possible to hold intimate christian fellowship in public synagogues where some might be incensed by the claims of the

gospel.

I was very intentional when choosing the tittle of this topic as i know both sides have their supposed biblical proof, and around and around we go. What im looking for is historical records that refute the historical records i have provided.

God bless.

[Joshua-777]

As far as Historical proof about what the church did, There is biblical evidence that the church observed the Sabbath. Lets examine both sides from the bible. I have found many verses saying they gathered together on Shabbat and preached, but I have not found a single verse saying they preached on the first day of the week.

Acts 13:42-44

42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17 shows Pauls custom was to teach on the Sabbath

Acts 17:1-4

1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying,

[Joshua-777]

http://www.cogwriter.com/sabbath.htm

Apostolic Constituitions, written in Syria around 250 A.D. states:

XXIII...But keep the Sabbath, and the Lord's day festival; because the former is the memorial of the creation, and the latter of the resurrection (Apostolic Constitutions - Didascalia Apostolorum Book VII, Section II. As cited in Andrews J.N. in History of the Sabbath, 3rd editon, 1887. Reprint Teach Services, Brushton (NY), 1998, p. 329 and Constitutions of the Holy Apostles, Bk. 7, Sec. 2, Ch. 23, trans. in ANF, Vol. 7, 1885. Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody (MA), printing 1999, p. 469)...

XXXIII...Let the slaves work five days; but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day let them have leisure to go to church for instruction in piety. We have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation, and the Lord's day of the resurrection (Apostolic Constitutions - Didascalia Apostolorum Book VIII, Section IV).

XXXVI. O Lord Almighty Thou hast created the world by Christ, and hast appointed the Sabbath in memory thereof, because that on that day Thou hast made us rest from our works, for the meditation upon Thy laws...Thou didst give them the law or decalogue, which was pronounced by Thy voice and written with Thy hand. Thou didst enjoin the observation of the Sabbath, not affording them an occasion of idleness, but an opportunity of piety, for their knowledge of Thy power, and the prohibition of evils; having limited them as within an holy circuit for the sake of doctrine, for the rejoicing upon the seventh period...On this account He permitted men every Sabbath to rest, that so no one might be willing to send one word out of his mouth in anger on the day of the Sabbath. For the Sabbath is the ceasing of the creation, the completion of the world, the inquiry after laws, and the grateful praise to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon men (Apostolic Constitutions - Didascalia Apostolorum Book VII, Section II).

Christians were very careful in the observationof Saturday,or the seventh day, which was the ancient Jewish sabbath... In the Eastern church it was ever observed as a festival...From hence it is plain, that all the Oriental churches, and the greatest part of the world, observed the sabbath as a festival. And the Greek writers are unanimous in their testimony. The author of the Constitutions, who describes the customs chiefly of the Oriental church, frequently speaks of it...Athanasius likewise tells us, that they held religious assemblies on the sabbath, not because they were infected with Judaism, but to worship Jesus the Lord of the sabbath. Epiphanius says the same, That it was a day of public assembly in many churches, meaning the Oriental churches, where it was kept a festival (Bingham J. Origines Ecclesiastic

[Joshua-777]

Now going back to scripture, I just stumbled across this. Sunday was a day they broke bread together and had fellowship according to Acts 20, but They broke bread and had fellowship every day.

Acts 20:7

7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.

Acts 2:42-46

42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

[JCISGD]

#44 Although Paul speaks of the sabbath being kept, it is keeping a sabbath (seventh part) to observe any day after six consecutive days. The literal keeping of the seventh day only as the sabbath is not possible to any country outside of Israels time zone, and merges with the 6th or the 1st day God created depending on which direction around the globe we go.

The reason i objected to the quotes in the COG link is that the writer of that site assigns assertions to them that are not proven.

I dont object to the quotes posted as i will then comment on them, but i dont wish to sift through links.

#45

[Apostolic Constituitions, written in Syria around 250 A.D. states:

XXIII...But keep the Sabbath, and the Lord's day festival; because the former is the memorial of the creation, and the latter of the resurrection

XXXIII...Let the slaves work five days; but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day let them have leisure to go to church for instruction in piety. We have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation, and the Lord's day of the resurrection

for the rejoicing upon the seventh period...

For the Sabbath is the ceasing of the creation, the completion of the world, the inquiry after laws, and the grateful praise to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon men.]

These Quotes prove that the Lords Day is in fact a seperate day to the seventh day. Also that both days were kept as a sabbath.

Who can doubt that the Lords Day ("memorial to creation") is superior to the seventh day ("memorial to creation"), being that it belongs to the new covenant and not the old that needed a better, else why then the latter if the former were sufficent?

#46

While it does prove they met daily for breaking bread, it does not prove what the early church did, as only the apostles and a few others would have been able to give up all employments for lengthy extended periods. Nor does it prove that they met in the synagogues for intimate fellowship and free thought.

It must be remembered that shortly after these accounts, they were mercilessly persecuted and most fled to other regions. Paul himself was often beaten in the symagogues and left outside for dead, can we believe that they met as a church there?

Therefore i suggest the only reliable source we have for knowing which veiw is accurate is the recorded history of the early church. We have historical statements from directly after the apostles generation that the early church met on the Lords Day for each successive generation until the present.

see link to early church fathers in #1

We have no historical records of the early church meeting on the seventh alone. These i am asking for if they are available.

Im failable, if ive erred or overstepped i hope to be corrected.

[Botz]

It was still IN the end of the Sabbath.

I hear what you are saying bro, and I went back and re-read your excellent post about the comings and goings to the Tomb and the timing of it all...I enjoyed it then and I enjoyed it again just now. It seems the particular thing we have a slight difference of opinion about at the moment is the word usage of Matthew 28:1 in which I see you insist on using the KJV, which is fine, but I did not find your explanation of the wording 'as it began to dawn' conclusive or completely convincing...there are two main reasons:-

1. From what I know of Jewish tradition/laws visiting a graveyard on the Shabbat is strictly forbidden, so it would seem much more likely and as far as I can see in accordance to Scripture, that the women had deliberately waited till the Shabbat had finished, and were no longer rstricted by either the length of their journey, or the object of their destination.

2. Most major translations do not emphasis the things written in quite the way you do (they may be wrong I guess) and David Stern in his translation of this verse in the Jewish New Testament writes 'After Shabbat towards dawn on Sunday...' in his commentary he concludes that the reference is definitely directed towards Sunday morning.

Was hoping for a rejoinder BlindSeeker if you are out there.

Read what you posted JCISGD...interesting, although keeping my distance on this one...maybe we need to take both Saturday and Sunday off just to be on the safe-side

[Guest yod]

These Quotes prove that the Lords Day is in fact a seperate day to the seventh day. Also that both days were kept as a sabbath.

actually all it proves is that the Syrian "church" of the 2nd century was already re-interpreting with a greek spirit.

My first question (of many) about what they say is "Was this statement made during or after Origin??" because it was him who introduced "spiritualizing" scripture to bend it into whatever shape they want.

There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that the Lord's Day is anything but the Sabbath.

None whatsoever.

[Guest yod]

Now going back to scripture, I just stumbled across this. Sunday was a day they broke bread together and had fellowship according to Acts 20, but They broke bread and had fellowship every day.

The first day of the week begins at sundown Saturday in the hebrew calendar. Many of these gatherings were a Motza-shabbat, or "ending of the sabbath" gathering on a Saturday night. They also wouldn't have taken any kind of collection or monies on the Sabbath.

That would make sense because jewish believers would have met in the synogogue with their own families/people for the sabbath and (christian) gentiles wouldn't necessarily be welcomed. After Sabbath, they could walk whatever distance it took to go and have fellowship with the gentile converts to this Jewish faith.

I have no doubt that the community of faith would come together on the first day of the week after having taken a Shabbat.

[Joshua-777]

#44 Although Paul speaks of the sabbath being kept, it is keeping a sabbath (seventh part) to observe any day after six consecutive days. The literal keeping of the seventh day only as the sabbath is not possible to any country outside of Israels time zone, and merges with the 6th or the 1st day God created depending on which direction around the globe we go.

The reason i objected to the quotes in the COG link is that the writer of that site assigns assertions to them that are not proven.

I dont object to the quotes posted as i will then comment on them, but i dont wish to sift through links.

#45

[Apostolic Constituitions, written in Syria around 250 A.D. states:

XXIII...But keep the Sabbath, and the Lord's day festival; because the former is the memorial of the creation, and the latter of the resurrection

XXXIII...Let the slaves work five days; but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day let them have leisure to go to church for instruction in piety. We have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation, and the Lord's day of the resurrection

for the rejoicing upon the seventh period...

For the Sabbath is the ceasing of the creation, the completion of the world, the inquiry after laws, and the grateful praise to God for the blessings He has bestowed upon men.]

This does show that this church kept both days in later times, but this was also 250 A.D. A lot has happened since the apostles, Israel was destroyed, gentiles dominated Christianity. You also had around 400 years of persecution starting with Nero, who's persecution lead to the destruction if Israel in 70ad. I would like to see evidence around the time of the apostles for sunday being the Lords day. With the growing greek influence, it's easy to see how the roots where covered.

Also scripturally it would have had to correspond to to the same Sabbath Jesus observed, the 7th day of the week. Not just random 6 days and 7 day rest, but literally the seventh day. Proof, they met in the synagogues. Paul was not saying any day after 6 consecutive days, and to claim so is not biblical.

These Quotes prove that the Lords Day is in fact a seperate day to the seventh day. Also that both days were kept as a sabbath.

Who can doubt that the Lords Day ("memorial to creation") is superior to the seventh day ("memorial to creation"), being that it belongs to the new covenant and not the old that needed a better, else why then the latter if the former were sufficent?

If the Lords Day was superior, why didn't God mention that in His word? I can see through out acts they taught on the Sabbath, and kept the Sabbath, also verses saying it was Pauls custom to keep the Sabbath, but there is lacking verses for sunday being the Lords day. If Sunday, the Lords day was superior, God would have put His signature on it as He did with the 7th day.

#46

While it does prove they met daily for breaking bread, it does not prove what the early church did, as only the apostles and a few others would have been able to give up all employments for lengthy extended periods. Nor does it prove that they met in the synagogues for intimate fellowship and free thought.

It must be remembered that shortly after these accounts, they were mercilessly persecuted and most fled to other regions. Paul himself was often beaten in the symagogues and left outside for dead, can we believe that they met as a church there?

While that single verse does not prove what the early church did, The fact they broke bread every day, stops that verse from being used to support the First Day was the day of worship. Now with this verse no longer applying, There is only one verse in the bible left.

1 Corinthians 16:2

2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when I come.

So this verse shows that they laid aside something, on the first day so that there would be no collections when Paul came to them. Notice Paul wasn't there, and that was the reason to collect money. It has nothing to do with Sunday church. Also it showed that they where to work, "collecting" or "Gathering"

Now with that and Acts 20:7 together, You have a very weak scriptural argument for sunday observance, but You do have multiple verses that say they taught on the Sabbath, they gathered on Sabbath, ect. Though Paul was beat and chased out of the synagogues some times, does not prove they discarded the Sabbath. They also met in houses, though it does say what day they met, Acts 18:7 was a result of teaching on the Sabbath and being rejected.

Acts 18:7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Acts 17 clearly shows to me that it was Paul's custom to keep the Sabbath, And Paul didn't just teach Jews on the Sabbath, but He also taught the gentiles.

Acts 17:1-4

1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.

Therefore i suggest the only reliable source we have for knowing which veiw is accurate is the recorded history of the early church. We have historical statements from directly after the apostles generation that the early church met on the Lords Day for each successive generation until the present.

see link to early church fathers in #1

We have no historical records of the early church meeting on the seventh alone. These i am asking for if they are available.

Im failable, if ive erred or overstepped i hope to be corrected.

The most reliable source we have for knowing what is accurate is the bible. What the Apostles did during the time scriptures to me is more important than what they did 100 years later. What is written is most accurate. The scriptures do not prove sunday is the Lords day, but they do prove they gathered on the Sabbath to worship with Jews and gentiles during the days of the Apostles.

Heres an interesting quote I found,

http://www.biblehistory.com/The%20Origin%20of%20Sunday%20Worship.html

Rome and Alexandria. Thus both Barnabas of Alexandria and Justin Martyr in Rome not only refer to the practice of Sunday observance, but they both also manifest a negative attitude toward the Sabbath. Interestingly, it is precisely these same two cities--Alexandria and Rome--that are mentioned by two fifth-century historians, Socrates Scholasticus and Sozomen, as being exceptions to the general rule that worship services were still held on Saturday throughout the Christian world as late as the fifth century. What particular circumstances could have led Rome and Alexandria to their early adoption of Sunday observance? Moreover, why was Sunday observance soon (at least by the third century) so readily accepted throughout the rest of Christendom, even when the Sabbath was not abandoned? Obviously, the evidence thus far presented shatters the theory that Sunday was substituted for the seventh-day Sabbath immediately after Christ's resurrection. But likewise incorrect is the opposing view that the Christian Sunday was borrowed directly from paganism early in post-New Testament times. Not only does this theory lack proof, but the sheer improbability that virtually all Christendom suddenly shifted to a purely pagan practice should alert us to the need for a more plausible explanation. Especially is this so when we remember that numerous early Christians accepted martyrdom rather than compromise their faith. Justin himself was such a Christian, suffering martyrdom in Rome about A.D. 165.