Hebew mind vs. Greek mind

[JCISGD]

Actually, the church, as we know and experience it as a separate institution from Israel, is a post-biblical concept. The NT teaches about the Kingdom of God into which Gentiles are grafted in. The entire Bible is written from an hebraic frame of reference. This can be seen right down to uniqueness of hebraic grammar and syntax. The NT does not introduce anything new that was not already presented in the OT. In fact, the NT is written in the terminology of the OT which is entirely hebraic in its mindset. The NT was written by Jews who lived and thought like Jews and who were trying communicate hebraic theology through a foreign language (Greek). The entire Bible is a Jewish book and unfortunately throughout the years, the original gospel that was preached by those first Jewish believers was hijacked by a few church leaders and stood on its head.

I am in complete agreement with what you say here Shiloh

The thing I do not understand, is why so many Believer's are astonishingly resistant to these facts, and attempt at all costs to shore up their lack of understanding by clinging to practices and teachings that developed in the mind of man...they prefer to maintain a non-Jewish context for traditions and teachings as though by doing so they are being faithful, remaining true....whereas what we should be doing is throwing out all the things we have accumulated over the centuries that have separated us from the simplicity of the Gospel, and rediscovering for ourselves all the unmistakeable Jewish elements.

Can you explain why the Jews stumbled at Christ and nearly all of His teaching if His mindset was as theirs? His language was the same, but they were unable to grasp what He was teaching as it was so far from their understanding.

Its just plain false that the christian church was subverted in the early centuries A.D, hence the stubborn resistance and clinging to what is proved to our minds by scripture and historic proofs. There has been cyclic rising and falling of sound doctrine and willing obedience, but this is has always been the case even in the OT.

If just one person can provide a historical writing by the early church that supports what you say i will yeild to the evidence. If doctrine was being subverted, where are the outcries and refutations from the other side, or even pagan writings reporting the unrest and disputings? Paul said those that teach error were to be made note of and refuted.

Botz i think you need to consider that you are the one coming in with a new way and claiming the preexisting is only

accumulation of man without solid proof. Either way God bless.

[lekh l'kha]

Satan says, "If I can't accuse a saint by something he is actually doing wrong then let me invent something to falsely accuse him by".

Paul said, "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Rom 12:2-3).

And the saints take that to heart.

So the saints will be accused with a false accusation to make them feel they are doing something wrong:

The Bible is produced by people who had a Hebrew mindset and you have a Greek mindset!

The insinuation is that if a saint does not agree with the Jews' insistence on obedience to Torah as a means to please God, they have a pagan Greek mindset.

I doubt that any true saint has a truly Greek mindset.

[Guest yod]

Can you explain why the Jews stumbled at Christ and nearly all of His teaching if His mindset was as theirs? His language was the same, but they were unable to grasp what He was teaching as it was so far from their understanding.

According to Peter in Acts 4, it was the "leaders of the people" (Jews & Gentiles) who rejected Him. His trials were held at night because the "leaders of the people" feared the people, so evidently there were massive numbers of Jews who did receive Him.

If that were not the case, neither you or I would have heard of Him.

Its just plain false that the christian church was subverted in the early centuries A.D, hence the stubborn resistance and clinging to what is proved to our minds by scripture and historic proofs.

Again, all you are proving is that you haven't researched the history of the early centuries of churchdom

If just one person can provide a historical writing by the early church that supports what you say i will yeild to the evidence. If doctrine was being subverted, where are the outcries and refutations from the other side, or even pagan writings reporting the unrest and disputings? Paul said those that teach error were to be made note of and refuted.

It takes more than a paragraph or a soundbyte to show all the wrangling done for supremacy in the greco-church. I simply can't write what I've learned over 20 years of studying this subject...so I did a search to find the briefest summary available to answer your question.

http://www.cogwriter.com/polycarp.htm

Again, Polycarp was a disciple of John. He kept Sabbath and the Feasts. He confronted all the heretics of the early church (and there were myriads of them in supposed leadership) who were bigoted anti-semites and also projecting their understanding of Greek mythology onto the gospel narrative.

[Guest yod]

The Bible is produced by people who had a Hebrew mindset and you have a Greek mindset!

The insinuation is that if a saint does not agree with the Jews' insistence on obedience to Torah as a means to please God, they have a pagan Greek mindset.

I doubt that any true saint has a truly Greek mindset.

EVERYONE in the civilized western world has a greek mindset to some degree. This is exactly what we are to overcome by the washing of the Word. It would be impossible to divorce oneself of greek thinking since our entire civilization is built upon it. Having a greek mind is not the problem, but reading the Bible as if it is a greek concept or document is the problem.

Paul was chosen as the apostle to the gentiles BECAUSE he was the only Apostle who had a hands-on understanding of greek philosophical tenets.

The Pharisees came about only a century before Yeshua BECAUSE the Jews were being hellenized by this greek mindset and so many were falling away from the faith of their fathers. The Pharisees originally rose up in opposition to the influence of greco-society, but like many christians today, began adding their own particular morality to God's righteousness.

When Yeshua spoke about "the world" He was talking about the Greek worldview. That is why terms "gentile" and "greek" are used synonomously all over the newer Covenant scriptures.

The greek spirit exalts self above God. This is what Jew/Gentiles need to overcome no matter what mindset they start with.

[lekh l'kha]

The Bible is produced by people who had a Hebrew mindset and you have a Greek mindset!

The insinuation is that if a saint does not agree with the Jews' insistence on obedience to Torah as a means to please God, they have a pagan Greek mindset.

I doubt that any true saint has a truly Greek mindset.

EVERYONE in the civilized western world has a greek mindset to some degree. This is exactly what we are to overcome by the washing of the Word. It would be impossible to divorce oneself of greek thinking since our entire civilization is built upon it. Having a greek mind is not the problem, but reading the Bible as if it is a greek concept or document is the problem.

Paul was chosen as the apostle to the gentiles BECAUSE he was the only Apostle who had a hands-on understanding of greek philosophical tenets.

The Pharisees came about only a century before Yeshua BECAUSE the Jews were being hellenized by this greek mindset and so many were falling away from the faith of their fathers. The Pharisees originally rose up in opposition to the influence of greco-society, but like many christians today, began adding their own particular morality to God's righteousness.

When Yeshua spoke about "the world" He was talking about the Greek worldview. That is why terms "gentile" and "greek" are used synonomously all over the newer Covenant scriptures.

The greek spirit exalts self above God. This is what Jew/Gentiles need to overcome no matter what mindset they start with.

Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better.

Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset?

[Guest yod]

Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better.

Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset?

I've provided proof here since 2002. Why don't you read it before making your false accusations? I can't keep up with who remembers what I've said and who doesn't, so I don't repeat all of it every time I mention it.

Tell ya what....here's your chance. Name 10 leaders of the early centuries of the church, who DIDNT make an anti-semitic (bigoted) comments regularly.

No...I'll make it easier....just name 5

Then explain the judensau.

[lekh l'kha]

Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better.

Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset?

I've provided proof here since 2002. Why don't you read it before making your false accusations? I can't keep up with who remembers what I've said and who doesn't, so I don't repeat all of it every time I mention it.

Tell ya what....here's your chance. Name 10 leaders of the early centuries of the church, who DIDNT make an anti-semitic (bigoted) comments regularly.

No...I'll make it easier....just name 5

Then explain the judensau.

I live in the 21st century and I never knew nor care much for the leaders of post-apostolic Christianity, and I'm not at war with 21st-century Christians who like me seek to develop a Christ-like mindset through their study of the Word of God, and I'm fully aware that brothers like Bold Believer and JCISD have the Holy Spirit guiding them into all truth through their study of the Word, even though we vehemently disagree on some points, and I'm fully aware that like you and me, they have a filter through which the illumination of the Holy Spirit has to pass - our own minds.

I'm not at war with brothers who do not see things the way I do, and I don't believe I'm more enlightened than them or more spiritual or more Godly than them because I try to look at things through a 1st century Jewish mindset when I study the Word.

We should be able to discuss these things without getting on the attack so much - if we can't then there's proof we don't have enough of a Christ-like mindset.

[mizzdy]

The Bible is produced by people who had a Hebrew mindset and you have a Greek mindset!

The insinuation is that if a saint does not agree with the Jews' insistence on obedience to Torah as a means to please God, they have a pagan Greek mindset.

I doubt that any true saint has a truly Greek mindset.

EVERYONE in the civilized western world has a greek mindset to some degree. This is exactly what we are to overcome by the washing of the Word. It would be impossible to divorce oneself of greek thinking since our entire civilization is built upon it. Having a greek mind is not the problem, but reading the Bible as if it is a greek concept or document is the problem.

Paul was chosen as the apostle to the gentiles BECAUSE he was the only Apostle who had a hands-on understanding of greek philosophical tenets.

The Pharisees came about only a century before Yeshua BECAUSE the Jews were being hellenized by this greek mindset and so many were falling away from the faith of their fathers. The Pharisees originally rose up in opposition to the influence of greco-society, but like many christians today, began adding their own particular morality to God's righteousness.

When Yeshua spoke about "the world" He was talking about the Greek worldview. That is why terms "gentile" and "greek" are used synonomously all over the newer Covenant scriptures.

The greek spirit exalts self above God. This is what Jew/Gentiles need to overcome no matter what mindset they start with.

Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better.

Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset?

First off this is not directed at you or anyone person here but why does everything have to go into a Sabbath, commandment debate?

All of the apostles were from Israel, were Jews, who had a hebrew mindset, who thought in hebrew wrote in hebrew but also by that time many of the 'Jews' especially the pharisee and saducees had much of the greek mindset, they were called hellenistic Jews. I think thats why so many see Paul's writings as hard to understand he also used some of that greek thinking trying to reach those greek thinking Jews. Most every single person thinks with a linear mindset and that is not how God put things out He uses cycles for everything, His days and nights, the turnings of the earth, moon, sun, His Feasts, His plantings of the fields there is no way else to see scriptures except from a cyclical hebraic mindset. If we just use the greek thinking we will miss sooo much and at least in my thinking that is where most all of the different denoms and debates come from, the lack of thinking in a hebraic mind.

Today most all seminaries, colleges, schools, denoms, just about everything we read and study regarding the bible comes from the greek thinking model with few exceptions. When we put philosophy into scriptures we are putting greek thinking into them, its so ingrained into our minds we have a hard time seeing it. The entire NT is full of hebraic idioms and most find them hard to understand yet if we have the hebrew mindset we see them and can understand them. None of us unless we read, speak and live hebrew we all have some kind of greek type thinking it takes study, study, study, plenty of questioning and lots and lots of prayer to get to the 'hebrew mindset' no one wakes up one morning with full understanding of anything. And by my putting this up I was not accusing anyone of anything nor was it ever my intention nor do I believe anyone else here is accusing anyone of anything all I wished to do was give people something to read and study and to think about.

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest yod]

We should be able to discuss these things without getting on the attack so much - if we can't then there's proof we don't have enough of a Christ-like mindset.

OK then, stop attacking me for presenting what I have studied so many years now. If you can prove me wrong, I would be the first to thank you for it.

I am in this thread only to defend saints who are being accused of "judaizing" by people who simply haven't taken the time to weigh the evidence of history.

And I have noticed you imply another subtle accusation instead of taking my simple challenge.

[lekh l'kha]

The Bible is produced by people who had a Hebrew mindset and you have a Greek mindset!

The insinuation is that if a saint does not agree with the Jews' insistence on obedience to Torah as a means to please God, they have a pagan Greek mindset.

I doubt that any true saint has a truly Greek mindset.

EVERYONE in the civilized western world has a greek mindset to some degree. This is exactly what we are to overcome by the washing of the Word. It would be impossible to divorce oneself of greek thinking since our entire civilization is built upon it. Having a greek mind is not the problem, but reading the Bible as if it is a greek concept or document is the problem.

Paul was chosen as the apostle to the gentiles BECAUSE he was the only Apostle who had a hands-on understanding of greek philosophical tenets.

The Pharisees came about only a century before Yeshua BECAUSE the Jews were being hellenized by this greek mindset and so many were falling away from the faith of their fathers. The Pharisees originally rose up in opposition to the influence of greco-society, but like many christians today, began adding their own particular morality to God's righteousness.

When Yeshua spoke about "the world" He was talking about the Greek worldview. That is why terms "gentile" and "greek" are used synonomously all over the newer Covenant scriptures.

The greek spirit exalts self above God. This is what Jew/Gentiles need to overcome no matter what mindset they start with.

Yod. You imply that all 20th century Christians have derived all of their teaching from those myriad heretics who projected their Greek philosophy into the scriptures and have had none of their thinking derived from their study of the Bible and are simply too thick to know any better.

Sorry, but this accusation of yours just smacks of false accusation of the brethren. How do you know you have a truly Biblical mindset?

First off this is not directed at you or anyone person here but why does everything have to go into a Sabbath, commandment debate?

All of the apostles were from Israel, were Jews, who had a hebrew mindset, who thought in hebrew wrote in hebrew but also by that time many of the 'Jews' especially the pharisee and saducees had much of the greek mindset, they were called hellenistic Jews. I think thats why so many see Paul's writings as hard to understand he also used some of that greek thinking trying to reach those greek thinking Jews. Most every single person thinks with a linear mindset and that is not how God put things out He uses cycles for everything, His days and nights, the turnings of the earth, moon, sun, His Feasts, His plantings of the fields there is no way else to see scriptures except from a cyclical hebraic mindset. If we just use the greek thinking we will miss sooo much and at least in my thinking that is where most all of the different denoms and debates come from, the lack of thinking in a hebraic mind.

Today most all seminaries, colleges, schools, denoms, just about everything we read and study regarding the bible comes from the greek thinking model with few exceptions. When we put philosophy into scriptures we are putting greek thinking into them, its so ingrained into our minds we have a hard time seeing it. The entire NT is full of hebraic idioms and most find them hard to understand yet if we have the hebrew mindset we see them and can understand them. None of us unless we read, speak and live hebrew we all have some kind of greek type thinking it takes study, study, study, plenty of questioning and lots and lots of prayer to get to the 'hebrew mindset' no one wakes up one morning with full understanding of anything. And by my putting this up I was not accusing anyone of anything nor was it ever my intention nor do I believe anyone else here is accusing anyone of anything all I wished to do was give people something to read and study and to think about.

shalom,

Mizz

I agree with everything you say above, but it is plain and clear as day (including in this thread) that whenever a brother or sister dares to disagree with this "enlightened" view of things, they get ganged up on and attacked - yes attacked. Once again nobody pointed a finger at you. I never responded to any of your posts. It's absolutely pointless talking about this if we get on the attack on those who disagree with our view. and don't say there was no ganging up and attacking going on in this thread - even non-believers (to our shame) can see that this began to take place in this thread.