Hebew mind vs. Greek mind

[Matthitjah]

Shiloh your link wouldnt work for me, but i will go read what i can find and concede to you if i see what you say. Either way im not going to play ping pong anymore.

Luther was not born again christian imo, but i dont know what his end state was and we are commanded not to go there.

Connecting electrodes now.

Martin Luther was not a born again Christian?

It was scripture like this that made him post his 95 thesis in opposition to the Romish Church;

Ro 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Arthur, why bow out now?

Peace,

Dave

Recieves nasty shock *Ouch!* but stil continues.

Ok ill answer your Dave because its a different topic. Mostly i think my involvement in this topic has become a defence of the topic i started in controversial, and its just going around and around imo. Good try Botz but im not taking the bait.

Just to be clear though Dave i did say "imo" and that scripture forbids me from saying wether he weht to hell or heaven.

Intellectual belief is not the same as saving faith no matter how many good works come from it.

I will ask you, do you think someone with the Holy Spirit can go on crusades to murder people? When i became saved i could no longer hunt animals for pleasure, but only for food or necessity.

I admit that being strongly entrenched in the papal system may have darkened his heart such that his conscience was not tender?

But why then are the other church fathers seen as hateful anti-semitics if they had the same excuse of ignorance as you are assigning to Luther?

BZZZZZ, BZZZZZ, BZZZZZZ!

I know Luther went to heaven.

Ro 10:9

That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

I don't see where he denied the Lord. Matter of fact he found righteousness by Faith outside of the system of Religion and indulgences which caused him to lay down his life, even at the threat of excommunication and death, for the Truth.

Re 12:11

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

God is not a liar and we can believe His Word when He say's that if we call on the name of Jesus in humility knowing our need for a Savior that we will be Saved.

I will ask you, do you think someone with the Holy Spirit can go on crusades to murder people? When i became saved i could no longer hunt animals for pleasure, but only for food or necessity.

I guess it depends on what your definition of murder is. David murdered and was forgiven and so did Moses. For all intents and purposes David was Saved when his flesh overrode his Father's Spirit, Law, and Will.

I never said Luther was ignorant.

We can all hold prejudiced and ignorant views despite our salvation.

To deny that that Luther was Saved is to deny the work of the Lord in his life and the world through the Protestant Reformation. It's almost like denying the work of the Holy Spirit.

I can see that your having a tough time wrapping your head around what these fella's and myself are saying. That's okay. It doesn't mean that they're Judaizing anyone though. I haven't heard a single one of them state that we must keep the Sabbath on any certain day to remain Saved. I don't hear them advocating the keeping of the Law except in regards to it's fullness either.

They're talking about the Kingdom of Heaven as expressed by the Prophets and the Lord Himself.

The viewpoint that they are expressing hasn't been around very long in this modern age although it was the original viewpoint held by the Disciples and the Church in Jerusalem before it went to Rome and became Romanized.

Peace,

Dave

[sheya joie]

I guess it depends on what your definition of murder is. David murdered and was forgiven and so did Moses. For all intensive purposes David was Saved when his flesh overrode his Father's Spirit, Law, and Will.

Nitpicking alert...

It's 'for all intents and purposes' please. Just to let you know.

Nitpicking done. Carry on.

[Guest shiloh357]

Thanks Mizzdy your a legend.

I will admit that he used some very strong language, and calling the Jews the vilest of all men is extreme. However i have never held Constantine up on this forum as an example, and more importantly we do not know the heart or context of his words.

I see. So can you think of a "context" in which calling the Jews the "vilest of all men" would be an acceptable? Constantine was reflecting the anti-Semitism that was prevalent in ancient Rome. Much of the anti-Semitism that continued from Constantine onward for the next 1,700 years was directed at the Jews for being Jews.

They (as you do) blamed "the Jews" for the death of Jesus. They (as you do) clamed that "the Jews" rejected Jesus. You are simply repeating the same vile lies that began with those early church leaders who projected their hatred of Jews on to God and read it into the Scriptures.

Some of Pauls words were equally strong.

"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. O Lord, come!" 1 Corinthians 16:22

It appears to me Paul said much the same thing as Constantine only the latter perhaps needed qualify his statement.

Except that Paul was not directing that at the Jews. Paul was making a general statement about the fate of all who reject Christ.

Furthemore, you cannot compare the two statements. Constantine was singling the Jews out at the vilest of all men BECAUSE they were Jews. Paul in dealing with the Jews says something altogether different. In speaking of His own people, Paul is far more compassionate and does not even come close in His criticisms of the Jewish people as does Constantine. You simiply cannot compare the putrid anti-Semitic views of Constantine with Paul's own love for the Jewish people and his longing for their salvation even to the point of wishing that he were cut off for their sake. You need to read a little closer what you typing.

The Vikings from which i descend were once considered barbarians and a vilest people by some, and who can object given their practices. Its not wrong to call vile that which is. Paul seems to have compassion on the lazy, lying Cretans, but not those who reject Christ.

Except that you are misreading Paul. The vikings did some pretty bad things; things for which they had a bad reputation. However, you cannot compare the vikings and the Jews. There is no comparison whatsoever.

I only began my first topic on the early church fathers as i was astonished at the causes of their deaths and their supernatural endurance during their martyrdom. My question is, if these who were shown great mercy by God in their deaths are not true christians, then who at those times were and where are their writings?

Even people of other religions have shown great courage and endurance in the face of persecution. You can do exploits in the flesh. You are using the wrong measuring rod to assess their true commitment to Christ.

I know some of you approve of Polycarp, but you reject those he was intimate with, some of whom were also pupils of either Pauls disciples or the apostle John himself.

Like who? Frankly, your knowledge of early church history leaves a lot to be desired.

I am not here to defend any hatred of the Jews, im only saying history does prove early christians did recieve new observances with the new covenant and that the Holy Spirit was responsible for ushering in these observances and worship of Christ in spirit and in truth.

To date no one has shown otherwise imo.

None of that is true. Baptism pre-dates Christianity as does "communion" as it was already present in the Passover. What Jesus did was bring about a new understanding or application. But it is not a new observance. Jesus only ever kept the Sabbath and there is NO NT commandment to NOT observe the Sabbath. The "new" covenant is not "new" at all. It is the same covenant, but is simply an improved version. It still has a sacrifice, still has blood, still has a high priest. It even has a temple. All of the previous elements relative to the old Covenant are there, but in a better and eternal way. It is not "new" in the most absolute sense.

[mizzdy]

Thanks Mizzdy your a legend.

I am??! gee when did that happen? I feel really old now, legends are old. I see Shiloh already addressed the rest of your post. Its how one chooses to view history so your views are your views many have shown you all kinds of truths here. I see the early practices as the ones that were already in place, the things seen today whether they are wrong or right, is not what scriptures show and they are the ultimate authority. Sometimes when God is trying to show us something we fight the hardest and maybe He is trying to show you something in all these threads?

[Matthitjah]

I guess it depends on what your definition of murder is. David murdered and was forgiven and so did Moses. For all intensive purposes David was Saved when his flesh overrode his Father's Spirit, Law, and Will.

Nitpicking alert...

It's 'for all intents and purposes' please. Just to let you know.

Nitpicking done. Carry on.

Thanks.

Do you teach english?

[Guest]

I guess it depends on what your definition of murder is. David murdered and was forgiven and so did Moses. For all intensive purposes David was Saved when his flesh overrode his Father's Spirit, Law, and Will.

Nitpicking alert...

It's 'for all intents and purposes' please. Just to let you know.

Nitpicking done. Carry on.

Thanks.

Do you teach english?

Brother No Matter How Well They Are Taught

I Doubt Most Of The English Are Any Better At This Language Than The Colonists

[Guest yod]

The trouble is Yod is that i find your reasoning and claims equally absurd and trusting the opinions of others.

Of course you do....because you have not studied the history of the early centuries and keep proving that over and over. But you can't point to a place where I trust ANY man's opinion over the scriptures. That hasn't happened since before 1990 when I got saved.

Polycarp did keep the feasts and sabbaths but he also kept the Lords day which Jn 20:18-19 prove is the ressurection day and all of that time called the Lords Day.

It says this in your quote from Polycarp above "And after the observance of the Sabbath, let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s Day as a festival, the resurrection-day, the queen and cheif of all the days"

ok...read it again.

That was Ignasius.

You seem to think that knowing Hebrew gives you better understanding two thousand years after the fact.

Why do you think they teach hebrew in seminaries? Does speaking German, Latin, or Greek help one understand the books we get from the hebrews?

Please, use a little common sense here.

Who says the men i have read are ignorant of hebrew and greek?

History does!?

You wouldn't even make that statement if you knew what you were talking about; but that wouldn't be so bad if you would just admit to yourself that you need a lot help in that area before making such statements. Please spend a little time checking into what you're hearing before dismissing it.

[Guest shiloh357]

Who says the men i have read are ignorant of hebrew and greek? They were not as far as i know. But more than that their lives make yours and mine carnal by comparrison.

It is hypocritical for you to accuse yod or anyone else of trusting in the opinions of others when you willingly trust in the words of men yourself. It seems you apply a doublestandard here.

[Guest yod]

more than that their lives make yours and mine carnal by comparrison.

speak for yourself.

My testimony isn't over yet, but I'm not convinced most of what is known as "the early church fathers" weren't VERY carnal. I'm not worried about putting my works up against theirs when I'm done here.

Most of them were more closely aligned with the Didache than the scriptures. Please....go find out what the Didache is before you start railing again.

[sheya joie]

I guess it depends on what your definition of murder is. David murdered and was forgiven and so did Moses. For all intensive purposes David was Saved when his flesh overrode his Father's Spirit, Law, and Will.

Nitpicking alert...

It's 'for all intents and purposes' please. Just to let you know.

Nitpicking done. Carry on.

Thanks.

Do you teach english?

Homeschooling mom. Also aspiring author. You don't want to see me pull out the red pencil...