Tithe???

[Botz]

We are all at different stages of our walk with Him so not everyone sees things the same ways, a good thing I think as it helps us to take things and work them out which is what Worthy and other places are for.

Hi Mizzdy...that is a good point, although it is certainly one that our Catholic and Orthodox brethren would argue against, as they have no real choice but to acknowledge their 'Church's' ruling on every doctrine...and they would say that this is what gives them stability and the understanding that they are doing things correctly....it doesn't allow for their doctines and traditions to be wrong, and they all have to see things the same way from the get-go.

I have not ever been convinced that God's instructions for a righteous and healthy way of living was ever done away with, including the Sabbath and His feasts which God Himself said were everlasting. I also think so much of our opinions and doctrines are understood through the lenses of who we think Israel is and who we think the chuch is God is not divided in regard to His own people and never made a covenant with just gentiles and as we see the new covenant is not made with gentiles but with Israel and Judah no mention ever of a separate covenant for gentiles or a gentile church. I see posting on woman wearing pants but when God instructed Aaron and the others to make the priests clothes their 'trousers' were to cover their thighs. So how can we argue about that especially in light that we are to walk in the Spirit as He leads and not as we think we are being led. By saying one set of laws are done away with but we can use some of the laws as we see fit kinda seems wrong don't you think. I do agree we don't have a Levitical priesthood yet we are to be priests before God and man daily so the we should act that way.

When looking at the Law, many Believers do not understand that 'it' has never been 'done away' with..... it is 'us' that have died/been done away with, and are therefore no longer under any obligations to the Law whatsoever...it has no jurisdiction over the 'dead'. Romans 7:4 (it is a revelation to those that struggle with getting their heads around how we stand in relation to the Law, if only they will take the time to grasp this truth)

If there was a central store house or several across the world that all could tithe to and food, clothing and the life could be given out wow what a service for God and for His children! Sadly I cannot see it happening too many different denoms would want to put their hands in it and eventually it would all fall apart at least thats how I see it all playing out. I personally believe we are to give as we can not all can give 10% of their income maybe they can only give say 50$ a month but they also serve in the food bank or feel called to prayer for others, this person is giving the only way they know how or can. I think supporting ones pastor or teacher is important I think its important to uphold the works that ones church does and thats part of it all the tithes were to go to supporting the work of God and not just keeping the priests fed. If ones pastor is telling anyone to give to the church till it hurts or any number of things like that and all ones tithes is going just for that church I would question it myself since the tithes were to support all the congregation of God.

I agree that we are neither obligated nor confined to giving a certain set amount...the main thing that should govern our use of the wages we earn, is that we have a generous heart and delight in utilising our money to the best of its potential for the glory of G-d. Often that is within a Church set-up, and ministries that it is involved in...but there are plenty of other things outside of this that also warrant our support. In maintaining our generous open heart, it is also vital that we apply a modicum of wisdom....eg, rather than give a drunk on the street some cash which he will only use to keep his alcohol level topped up...offer to take him for a meal or a coffee, then feed his soul.

We see God's instructions differently I see them as eternal and everylasting just like gravity which if you think about is one of Gods laws. Moses never made a law of His own, the Jewish brethren don't own Gods instructions either, how do we live without instructions? If I told my son growing up he had to love everyone like himself he would have been in serious trouble, so my instructions to him were specific and I allowed him to learn to 'walk' in them the best to his ability which I set by example. That is exactly what Yeshua, God, did when He took on human form He showed us how to walk in His instructions, He followed and walked in those so called 'Law of Moses' He became our perfect example on how to serve and please the Father and if it was good enough for Him to give us His instructions and then come walk in them Himself I think I want to emmulate Him, pattern my life on what He did and not what the theologians and the rest have decided after the facts.

The L-rd subjected Himself to the Law...he demonstrated that the Law which was good and holy and just, was not to be used unrighteously, or circum-navigated, or added to and changed according to the dictates of men....He showed the heart of the Law, and the joy to be had in the Law and showed the people that it was not a grievous burden, by contrasting what He taught compared to what some Jewish Leaders taught. Then when it was time to lay down His life the L-rd fulfilled the requirements of the Law, the curtain was ripped in two, and a new way into the Fathers presence was made possible through the curtain of His blood.

Yes we can do no better than determine to follow Him, and be true disciples.

Even though we see His instructions differently we are still brothers and sisters in the Messiah and He will teach us through the Spirit each day we ask for the truth of His words eventually we either accept what He says or we are told 'I never knew you' only Yeshua decides who is His chosen

I think I know what you mean...but I just want to clarify....The L-rd will only say those terrible words 'depart, I never knew you,' to those that did not have a saving relationship with Him, who were not born again, and who were not sealed by the Holy Spirit.

I am sure that He will have words to say to everyone of us, whatever tradition we have followed, that demonstrate we did not follow all of His teachings, and got some things wrong, and over-complicated others etc etc.

In Messiah. Botz

[mizzdy]

We are all at different stages of our walk with Him so not everyone sees things the same ways, a good thing I think as it helps us to take things and work them out which is what Worthy and other places are for.

Hi Mizzdy...that is a good point, although it is certainly one that our Catholic and Orthodox brethren would argue against, as they have no real choice but to acknowledge their 'Church's' ruling on every doctrine...and they would say that this is what gives them stability and the understanding that they are doing things correctly....it doesn't allow for their doctines and traditions to be wrong, and they all have to see things the same way from the get-go.

And isn't that just sad, our Creator gave each of us the ability to reason for ourselves. I would have made a very terrrible catholic heck at 10 I was questioning even the idea that the churches met on Sunday and that God said so probably why I quit listening to the teachers they had no answers but the pat ones ya know? And why I completely quit going to church when I was about 14 or 15.

When looking at the Law, many Believers do not understand that 'it' has never been 'done away' with..... it is 'us' that have died/been done away with, and are therefore no longer under any obligations to the Law whatsoever...it has no jurisdiction over the 'dead'. Romans 7:4 (it is a revelation to those that struggle with getting their heads around how we stand in relation to the Law, if only they will take the time to grasp this truth)

People see the law as something God gave to the Jews last I saw Judah was present with the rest of Israel that said I do to God's ketubah. My obligations are to the Father and His Son not to the law yet the Torah is Yeshua He was and is the full embodiment of it! gosh thats just so special and wonderful that He loved us so much and saw all the confusion and came to set it all straight by being walking the Torah out for all to witness! If God came to do away with His laws then wouldn't stand that gravity is no longer needed either? its one of His laws for our own benefit. Believe me Botz's I know all that arguments on why people think God feels we no longer need His instructions I have been a 'messianic/hebrew roots/minded' believer for a few decades now and come up against it all the time. Just let say this when I am not walking in His instructions I certainly no it! just by what happens in my life. I want to post on your other points but must go shopping (gag) with my daughter. Its such a pleasure to actually have a discussion with someone without the argumentive stuff!! Your a wonderful brother in Messiah and I am thankful for you!

shalom,

Mizz

[Guest]

Thanks for your post bro....I will go and read what you have written over the next couple of days. In Messiah. Botz

You are quite welcome. I am a dry and wordy writer, I won't feel bad if you cannot make it through, lol.

Made it through the first part (drank plenty of water) and am on to the last section....excellent bro, should be compulsive reading...would you mind if I printed a couple of copies to use at house-group and to show to a pastor friend of mine?

Have just finished it, and I don't think there is anything you have written that I struggle with...it was refreshing to see Scripture appropriately applied, in context, and to understand the heart of the message very clearly.

I will be reading over it several times more, along with several other studies on the same subject. We have reached a place in these days where there is a great deal of mis-understanding concerning the requirements of the Believer towards money and the role of finance, and unfortunately there are some teachings that fly off into subjective theory and the testimonies of selected experiences, using the Bible in a really shoddy manner and ensnaring those that trust these teachings without checking them out for themselves.

Thanks again for the study....if you ever expand it, please let me know if you remember. In Him. Botz

Amen!

Wonderful Study

[Fez]

Here's my two cents, and testimony for what it is worth.

I had not been saved for long, about two years or so. I had read the OT scriptures on tithing but did not tithe but gave at church every Sunday what i thought I could afford at the time.

Then along came a bad financial season for me. My credit card was screaming at me and had a hole burned through the middle. Cost were going up and i was not seeing it to the end of there month. I was perilously close to missing financial obligations. I was praying and worrying about it almost constantly.

I struggled to find solutions myself, to no avail. I too looked at the "test me" scripture, and decided to do just that. Naive? I guess so at the time. But trusting God's word, Oh yes.

I started tithing what I did not have - money from my credit card. For three months nothing..... Just more financial worries.

Then I was called into my CFO's office for a "personal" meeting (those are usually not good meetings in my organization). She said to me that they had assessed my position and responsibilities (and I thought, here it comes, on top of the financial woes, retrentchment...).

"We have decided to adjust your salary upwards". I thought, "Thank you Jesus, every little bit helps".

The upward move was equivalent to a 33% pay rise, and in one month my financial problems vanished and it started me on a path where I own my own property, and am financially secure. Not more than that, just sufficient to my needs (God knows better than I what those are).

Did I "test" God? Not in the way of a challenge, that would be oh so wrong. But in naive faith, yes.

I still tithe today.

But thats just my personal experience. and my two cents...

[mizzdy]

Here's my two cents, and testimony for what it is worth.

I had not been saved for long, about two years or so. I had read the OT scriptures on tithing but did not tithe but gave at church every Sunday what i thought I could afford at the time.

Then along came a bad financial season for me. My credit card was screaming at me and had a hole burned through the middle. Cost were going up and i was not seeing it to the end of there month. I was perilously close to missing financial obligations. I was praying and worrying about it almost constantly.

I struggled to find solutions myself, to no avail. I too looked at the "test me" scripture, and decided to do just that. Naive? I guess so at the time. But trusting God's word, Oh yes.

I started tithing what I did not have - money from my credit card. For three months nothing..... Just more financial worries.

Then I was called into my CFO's office for a "personal" meeting (those are usually not good meetings in my organization). She said to me that they had assessed my position and responsibilities (and I thought, here it comes, on top of the financial woes, retrentchment...).

"We have decided to adjust your salary upwards". I thought, "Thank you Jesus, every little bit helps".

The upward move was equivalent to a 33% pay rise, and in one month my financial problems vanished and it started me on a path where I own my own property, and am financially secure. Not more than that, just sufficient to my needs (God knows better than I what those are).

Did I "test" God? Not in the way of a challenge, that would be oh so wrong. But in naive faith, yes.

I still tithe today.

But thats just my personal experience. and my two cents...

In all of Gods instruction, when we follow them with a good and clean heart, are full of blessings, tithing is no different. One thing I have a problem with is when I keep hearing we follow one instruction and not others because they are 'done away with' I mean where do we draw the line, tithing is commanded but not the Sabbath anymore? The tithing we see in the scriptures is something most of us cannot do, we need crops etc. to keep them as God laid out. Yet God calls us to do so with a grateful and good heart, I have never thought we shouldn't tithe but that we should do so as we are called.

[Botz]

I appreciate what you say Fez....and G-d meets us according to our faith.

My objection to what has become achaically known as 'tithes and offerings' is that the Scriptures used do not support the methodology, and therefore to be in faith about them would require me to commit intellectual hari-kiri and ignore the thrust of their context, or even any underlying spiritual application.

The idea of giving, as a method of sowing financial seed for a financial return, which I presume is what you held out for and exercised faith for, is again something that I do not see in Scripture...at least no Scriptural evidence that demonstrates this is a legitimate part of the blessings available to Believers. I have heard countless testimonies like your own, where people have stood on G-ds word, and reaped the reward....but I have heard far more that are never invited up-front to testify....where they gave and ran into serious financial trouble, some so bad that their marriage broke up.

It is difficult swimming against the tide of opinion and teaching in this matter, especially because personal testimonies constitute a certain kind of evidence it is hard to refute, and because to challenge the teaching, disputes that evidence and makes it seem one is attacking or denegrating another persons faith, which I hope you will see is absolutely not the case.

However circumstancial evidence is not enough to consolidate and exonerate the teachings that use a very liberal theology and what to my understanding, is a careless handling of G-ds word.

I am very open-minded about this, and had hoped this thread would bring some strong challenges so that I and others could double-check things out, but unfortunately it seems people just disagree, but cannot explain biblically why they disagree, which is a shame and a poor riposte.

I do believe that like anything else in life, G-d can bring financial blessings to individuals, and can cause a change in their circumstances...but I think the key to this is knocking on Heaven's door in the quiet place, not in finding a method that at the same time creates wealth for a Church ministry (however honourable), it is almost like selling 'indulgences'.

Thoughtfully. Botz

[Fez]

I appreciate what you say Fez....and G-d meets us according to our faith.

My objection to what has become achaically known as 'tithes and offerings' is that the Scriptures used do not support the methodology, and therefore to be in faith about them would require me to commit intellectual hari-kiri and ignore the thrust of their context, or even any underlying spiritual application.

The idea of giving, as a method of sowing financial seed for a financial return, which I presume is what you held out for and exercised faith for, is again something that I do not see in Scripture...at least no Scriptural evidence that demonstrates this is a legitimate part of the blessings available to Believers. I have heard countless testimonies like your own, where people have stood on G-ds word, and reaped the reward....but I have heard far more that are never invited up-front to testify....where they gave and ran into serious financial trouble, some so bad that their marriage broke up.

It is difficult swimming against the tide of opinion and teaching in this matter, especially because personal testimonies constitute a certain kind of evidence it is hard to refute, and because to challenge the teaching, disputes that evidence and makes it seem one is attacking or denegrating another persons faith, which I hope you will see is absolutely not the case.

However circumstancial evidence is not enough to consolidate and exonerate the teachings that use a very liberal theology and what to my understanding, is a careless handling of G-ds word.

I am very open-minded about this, and had hoped this thread would bring some strong challenges so that I and others could double-check things out, but unfortunately it seems people just disagree, but cannot explain biblically why they disagree, which is a shame and a poor riposte.

I do believe that like anything else in life, G-d can bring financial blessings to individuals, and can cause a change in their circumstances...but I think the key to this is knocking on Heaven's door in the quiet place, not in finding a method that at the same time creates wealth for a Church ministry (however honourable), it is almost like selling 'indulgences'.

Thoughtfully. Botz

Sorry if I came across wrong in my post. I did not begin tithing in the hope that I would reap financial reward at all. It was the last thing on my mind actually. The scripture I was following was the "all things work to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose" from Romans.

Remember I was a "new" Christian at the time and I was asking myself if I was actually "loving" Him, in obeying His statures. I was asking my self if there was something I was missing, something that was "wrong" in my (very new), walk.

I believed, as I do now, that tithing, if not anything more than support for the church I attend, was a requirement of "obeying " Him.

I decided at the time that it was, and still believe so, not because OT scripture tells us to, but because it is a faith thing.

Perhaps my decision was rewarded by God, not because I tithed, but because I had the faith to believe the Romans scripture?

Blessings

[Botz]

Sorry if I came across wrong in my post. I did not begin tithing in the hope that I would reap financial reward at all. It was the last thing on my mind actually. The scripture I was following was the "all things work to the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose" from Romans.

Remember I was a "new" Christian at the time and I was asking myself if I was actually "loving" Him, in obeying His statures. I was asking my self if there was something I was missing, something that was "wrong" in my (very new), walk.

I believed, as I do now, that tithing, if not anything more than support for the church I attend, was a requirement of "obeying " Him.

I decided at the time that it was, and still believe so, not because OT scripture tells us to, but because it is a faith thing.

Perhaps my decision was rewarded by God, not because I tithed, but because I had the faith to believe the Romans scripture?

Blessings

Thanks for the clarification Fez...I guess the very terminology used in activating our finances in faith as Believers is part of the problem because people understand different things but use the same words.

[Believer112]

And yet, here is the vow of Jacob;

Ge 28:22

And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that you shall give me I will surely give the tenth unto you.

It wasn't about his produce it was about all that God had and would be giving him and it wasn't about what percent or even currying favor. It was about sincere worship from his heart. He already had been found in the blessing and the favor. His was an act of profound worship and thankfulness, as he was struck by the numinous awe.

(Candice, that's a "$5.00 word locker" usage. )

peace,

Dave

Hi Dave....could you please demonstrate tithing in action in the Body of Messiah....or quote some of Paul's teaching on its relevance for Believers today....or just anything that is in context, as I struggle with what is often taught, and am mostly in agreement with the new kid on the block....welcome to Worthy by the way LW.

Hi brother,

I believe the New Testament Tithe is everything. It's all of you in an act of devotion. Everything you do, everything you are, everything you own, everywhere you're at in that moment.

Please note that I highlighted Jacob's Vow. Jacob made a vow in an act of worship. He was struck by the numinous awe. He thought how awesome is this and he dedicated a tenth of everything that came into his life to the Lord, it wasn't just produce.

God get's the very best of the firstfruits. We need only look to the sad story of Cain and Able to see the mistake in that.

I am not trying to lay a heavy yoke on any man either. Each should do as he is convicted and as he has revelation.

The Lord has said this;

Mal 1:8

And if you offer the blind for a sacrifice, is it not evil? and if you offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto your governor; will he be pleased with you, or accept your person? says the LORD of hosts.

The Lord has also said this;

Lu 11:42

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I vehemently disagree with our new brother here. He is trying to lay the conviction of his own heart upon others.

Yet;

Eph 4:7

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

and;

Ro 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Giving is a Grace.

peace,

Dave

I have read everything you posted in reply to my question Dave, and you know I appreciate and value what you say , but in this instance I don't believe you have sufficiently answered the question, or countered what Luftwaffle has said adequately, as he echoes what I have posted on Worthy several times, but had no real come-backs.

If you look at the heart of what he is trying to get across, it is not that he doesn't believe in giving and supporting the local Body, and helping in whatever way possible, financial or other, to give where there is a need....what he is labouring to demonstrate is that using the terminology of tithes and offerings is confusing, and doctrinally throws up more questions than answers, and that many people who try and insist on keeping these terms and a certain format, struggle to adequately support it from Scripture, having to focus on mostly Old Covenant passages taken out of context....but nobody challenges them.

On top of that, I was trying to establish how far one can use the format of 'tithes and offerings' to invest in...which is what is also preached in many congregations...do I give financially to gain financially...in other words giving is like the stock exchange, except you cannot lose if you give with a cheerful heart and in faith....and I have often heard testimonies about G-ds supply, funnily enough, quite often from those I know have a comfortable home, car and decent salary (including wealthy Pastors)...whereas I have known many faithful Believers that are actually in real need...give in faith, beyond what they could, and get into further financial difficulties.

What I am looking for is clarity, and proper examples in operation from Paul or others.....I have seached for years, and argued and read up on it, but have found nothing, except that we should all look to be using our finances to further the KoG, and that would include supporting our brethren in ministry and sowing into various projects, but especiallly reaching out to the poor and evangelism...not under coercion, or compunction, but under conviction and in faith, not looking for a financial return, but treasures laid up in Heaven.

So as far as things stand (and I am a very teachable fellow) I whole-hearted endorse what Luftwaffle has proposed, (and I hope I haven't misrepresented you bro)...as I have found the current strands on tithes and offerings wholly inadequate, and biblically unsound...and in many respects slightly dishonest.

The game is well and truly afoot....over to you.

Boltz and Luft, Everything you guys are saying is right on. I tithe because it

[Guest]

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. James 3:17