Tithe???

[enoob57]

Hi Steven,

The beauty of the Christian gospel is that satisfies and fills the body, the mind and the soul. Christianity doesn't require that we abandon reason or logic. God is the God of order. He is the Logos, He is love and moreover He is Holy.

Spirituality isn't the opposite of logic, because logic is the study of truth. Spirituality without truth is a false spirituality.

Keep on tithing if you want to, but you know, and I know that you know why you've been trying to talk about everything but the topic at hand. I see what you're doing, you're trying desperately to create the impression that my opposition to tithing stems from worldliness or greed or whatever. It's easier thinking there's something wrong with me, then it is admitting that you're wrong. You've made up your mind and you're pushing this cart uphill. Think whatever pleases you about me, you're not even getting close to how evil and vile I really am. Thank goodness though that the truth isn't contingent upon my virtue...

I Leave you to your games, dear friend, because I have no interest in talking about myself. When you want to talk about the topic at hand, I'll be here.

God bless.

It is clear this one last point with Scripture- Christ knowing Judas to be a thief put him in charge as keeper of the money... clearly money and it issues did not concern our Lord so that leaves me to wonder where the influence of concern is coming from in you? Love Steven

[LuftWaffle]

Hi Walla299,

One reason for all the division and confusion about the "tithing" issue is this: Ask a question of the leadership in many (not all!!) churches today is like asking, "Do you want a pay raise?" Again: not all churches are this way, but some are.

Indeed, I've learnt long ago that tithing is something that you just shouldn't ask questions about. It is very rare that a pastor will engage in dialogue regarding this issue, which strikes me as odd, because if I were to ask questions about another doctrine such as baptism or communion, for instance, a pastor will go to great lengths to explain it scripturally, but ask about tithing and you hit a brick wall.

Once the common proofs (Mal 3:10) have been parroted and refuted the only recourse is to walk away, usually with some dismissive remark/innuendo about the questioner's character.

...but then again the tendency of church leadership to avoid this issue isn't that odd at all, it simply demonstrates that tithing cannot stand up to scrunity. It's a manmade doctrine which many pastors rabidly cling to, and they simply will not tolerate or entertain any thing that may threaten the status quo. The way is issue is dealt with is to ignore it and hope it'll go away and sometimes to badmouth and condemn those opposed to tithing incase congregation members start giving ear to the objections and stop paying.

It really has become somewhat of a cult mentality.

I do agree that not all churches are like this which is a relief.

Blessings.

Edited January 17, 2011 by LuftWaffle

[LuftWaffle]

It is clear this one last point with Scripture- Christ knowing Judas to be a thief put him in charge as keeper of the money... clearly money and it issues did not concern our Lord so that leaves me to wonder where the influence of concern is coming from in you? Love Steven

Wow, Steven. Pulling out all the stops now, I see.

[Botz]

It is clear this one last point with Scripture- Christ knowing Judas to be a thief put him in charge as keeper of the money... clearly money and it issues did not concern our Lord so that leaves me to wonder where the influence of concern is coming from in you? Love Steven

Hi Steven....Don't you see it is merely an honest appeal for some straight-forward dialogue about why tithing is taught the way it is in many congregations, and how from what some of us have seen and studied, it bears no relation to the reality of what the New Covenant encourages us to participate in?

The trouble is as soon as this topic is raised, it becomes a red-flag to many people, including Pastors and Teachers, because it has become something of a 'sacred cow'....in other words, it has been taught this way for generations and been adequately sufficient, why rock the boat with some 'new theory' that attacks what has been established and works just fine. Our contention is that we are instructed to commit everything we do to the L-rd, and to be motivated by faith....if we cannot see this teaching as biblically active today, then there is no faith operating that supports pursuing it....and what is not done in faith is actually sin.

We haven't been called to be 'Stepford robots', but to be led by the Spirit....and seeking some clarity and teaching that addresses this issue is surely a reasonable request....so far the lack of it speaks volumes.

In Messiah. Botz

[enoob57]

Before the Law- Gen 14:20, Heb 7:2-6, Gen 28:22

The Law which teaches us the righteousness of God- Lev 27:30-33,Num 18:21-24, Deut 12:6-7, Deut 12:17-19, Deut 14:22-29, Deut 26:12-15

Recognized by Christ in the way it is given- Lk 21:3-4

Taught by Christ in The Kingdom of Grace- Matt 25:14-30

Continued by my Brother Paul in That Kingdom of Grace- 1 Cor 16:1-4

Our Father has taught us in His Word *The Person of His Son* that it is the Spirit of things that reveal to us the unbounded nature of righteousness... the freedom to open ourselves to be filled with... the tithe of the Lord has become the expression of that love in that what is most precious to the world ($$$$) when given to God is the light that is set on a hill for all to see. We have in fact said we love the things set aside unto Him who is worthy to receive "ALL" and in His law 10% but in His Grace you receive His Son and in that I lost the percentage, in fact, from the time since the beginning of my awareness I have not found an adequate sum to express back what I have been given. For to love the created thing more than the One Who has Created it is just plain foolish! Love Steven

[mizzdy]

Now if tithing is still God's law and for all today why isn't the rest of the His laws still for all today? Grace covers us when we cannot equal what God has given us as some have said, that His grace allows us not to tithe in that 'old testament' way and give as we can or are led to yet the same say that we are not to do other of Gods laws they are dismissed as being fulfilled or done away with. I am not trying to be contentious at all just trying not to see some kind of different standard or something about which of His instructions we should toss out or follow. Personally I see the Torah as relevant to me today as it was to those at Yeshua's time, I cannot say how grateful/thankful I am for His grace that allows me to give as I can and not be condemned by the letter of the law but guided by His Word and Spirit and thats how I feel about all of His Torah not just tithing.

[Guest]

J. Vernon is right. The tithe is not a Christian doctrine, though it is the dogma of some. If your conscience requires you to tithe, then by all means do so. I won't pontificate beyond that here, but for the truly interested, I prepared a study which examines every possible passage I can find in the Bible on the topic. You might not agree with my conclusions, God bless you, but you will find every verse you will need I think, to form your own conclusion. That is what you should do anyway, Don't take my word for it, don't take your pastor's word for it, don't take anyone's word for it but God's.

http://www.omegazine.com/biblestudy/tithe_1.html#start

[Botz]

The love of money is the root of all eviil. This means that sinners depend on the world for their livelihood but Jesus and his saints depended on God to survive until they were killed by the world's sinners. Don't be fooled by your leaders who ask for money because they aren't from God. Their sins of laziness, greed and pride need to be satisfied and this is why they're standing at the pulpits in the churches of the world and preach lies to you to get your money.

Well this goes beyond what I am contending about. Most leaders who preach tithes and offerings, are godly men, and I am not trying to sling mud at any of them...in actual fact I thank G-d for many of them and their ministries and from what I have personally learnt and benefitted from what they have taught. It is wrong to try and unite brethren against people, be they leaders in the Body or co-workers...we are all in this together, and should strive to keep the bond of unity.

So I distance myself from these comments...my sole pre-occupation in this thread has been to have dialogue/argument/interaction with those that hold to the current teachings on tithes and offerings, not to provide a spring-board to any that want to slander their brothers and sisters....I have wanted to put to the test the conclusions I have come to, and to see if they hold water, fully prepared to reconsider if persuaded by Scripture.

[Botz]

J. Vernon is right. The tithe is not a Christian doctrine, though it is the dogma of some. If your conscience requires you to tithe, then by all means do so. I won't pontificate beyond that here, but for the truly interested, I prepared a study which examines every possible passage I can find in the Bible on the topic. You might not agree with my conclusions, God bless you, but you will find every verse you will need I think, to form your own conclusion. That is what you should do anyway, Don't take my word for it, don't take your pastor's word for it, don't take anyone's word for it but God's.

http://www.omegazine.com/biblestudy/tithe_1.html#start

Thanks for your post bro....I will go and read what you have written over the next couple of days. In Messiah. Botz

[LuftWaffle]

The love of money is the root of all eviil. This means that sinners depend on the world for their livelihood but Jesus and his saints depended on God to survive until they were killed by the world's sinners. Don't be fooled by your leaders who ask for money because they aren't from God. Their sins of laziness, greed and pride need to be satisfied and this is why they're standing at the pulpits in the churches of the world and preach lies to you to get your money.

Well this goes beyond what I am contending about. Most leaders who preach tithes and offerings, are godly men, and I am not trying to sling mud at any of them...in actual fact I thank G-d for many of them and their ministries and from what I have personally learnt and benefitted from what they have taught. It is wrong to try and unite brethren against people, be they leaders in the Body or co-workers...we are all in this together, and should strive to keep the bond of unity.

So I distance myself from these comments...my sole pre-occupation in this thread has been to have dialogue/argument/interaction with those that hold to the current teachings on tithes and offerings, not to provide a spring-board to any that want to slander their brothers and sisters....I have wanted to put to the test the conclusions I have come to, and to see if they hold water, fully prepared to reconsider if persuaded by Scripture.

I can understand thewordofgod's feelings. Once a person realises what goes on in many churches today, it is upsetting and it does anger a person that often times God's word is exploited for selfish reasons, especially when one witnesses or hears about the victimisation that happens in many many churches.

Having said that, I also agree with you, Bots, that one shouldn't lose sight of the fact that no man is perfect and no church is perfect. There are many good churches that teach tithing and for many of them it isn't about the money. Modern tithing is somewhat of a tradition in many churches and even though there's no scriptural foundation for it, it is accepted widely. There is a difference between somebody who upholds a tradition, however errorneous the tradition may be, with noble intentions and somebody who exploits that tradition in order to gain wealth and power and glory for themselves.

It is unfair and quite unreasonable to claim that all church leaders are fleecing their congregations, in the same way as it is unfair and unreasonable to make the a priori assumption that all Christians that are opposed to the modern doctrine of tithing are merely looking for excuses because they're greedy.

Edited January 20, 2011 by LuftWaffle