Power needed b4 we begin.

[JCISGD]

heres a quote from a article on Wesley and Whitfield. Im not into debating anything its just here for those who it might edify and point in the right direction for 2011.

They all resisted heartily the Moravian notion of "stillness," namely, that seekers must not exercise any effort, either by prayer, repentance, or good works, nor share in Holy Communion until, in Whitefield's words, they had "received the Holy Ghost in the full assurance of it," as the Apostles did at Pentecost.

http://truthinheart.com/EarlyOberlinCD/CD/Alethea/Whitefield.htm

IMO this is why the church today is lacking in power and in need of revival, myself included. While most christians today say the have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, where is the "full assurance of it" as witnessed by "power from on high"

As soon as christians a born, they are mostly told to begin to pray, do good and go out and witness to all, but thats not what the old time preachers taught who WERE filled with the Holy Ghost and POWER.

[Matthitjah]

Arthur,

Perhaps it would be beneficial if you defined Holiness within a Biblical context?

Peace,

Dave

[Matthitjah]

To extrapolate, when God told Abraham to be Perfect and to walk perfect before Him,

IE;

Ge 17:1

¶ And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be you perfect.

did He expect Abraham to be sinless?

Peace,

Dave

[JCISGD]

Arthur,

Perhaps it would be beneficial if you defined Holiness within a Biblical context?

Peace,

Dave

hi Dave, its not my intention to discuss holiness, i will leave that up to the individual. Theres no mention of sinlessness in that quote or my comments, im only saying that according to these men, "Power from above" is the FIRST thing a christian needs, but ive never heard that preached in any churches i know.

How we get that i will also leave to the individual to seek God about, i certainly dont have the answers.

[JCISGD]

I don't base my walk on what some "old preacher" said. Any preacher, old or new is flawed, and therefore: fallible. I base my walk on what the Bible says. Once you place road markers on your walk established by "old preachers," you are basing your walk on that and not scripture.

The Holiness doctrine has no roots in scritpure because not one of us is 'holy.' The Bible states that over and over again, so everyone who says we've got to be 'holy,' whatever their definition of the term is, have got the cart before the horse.

As for "power from on high," that would depend on what one's point of reference is, earthly or spiritually. If by "power from on high" one means speaking in tongues 24 hours a day and calling fire down from heaven, as in big, grandiose manifestations, that isn't the kind of power we need to be effective in our walk. It is something much simpler.

Thats funny as everyone here claims to base their thinking soley on the bible, yet theres not one that agrees with the other.

I dont speak in tongues and Paul says its the least of the gifts. As far as i know neither did the preachers i mentioned, and they couldnt be accused of "grandiose manifestations" unless you call seeing souls saved grandiose?

Have you read the biographies of these men or was that just a kneejerk reaction to preconcieved beliefs?

[nebula]

IMO this is why the church today is lacking in power and in need of revival, myself included. While most christians today say the have been baptised by the Holy Spirit, where is the "full assurance of it" as witnessed by "power from on high"

As soon as christians a born, they are mostly told to begin to pray, do good and go out and witness to all, but thats not what the old time preachers taught who WERE filled with the Holy Ghost and POWER.

I think I see your point.

The disciples didn't "go out into all the world and preach the Gospel" until after they were fill with power from on high.

Christians today do not do this.

[Hunterpoet]

Just curious as to what " the seekers " were suppose to do while waiting for the Holy Spirit. No prayer, no repentance??, no good works or communion....not much left , but to sit and watch everyone else.

I know full well that the Spirit guides and teaches me, but as yet I have not sat on a tongue of fire, or spoken in tongues, or had a lighting bolt illuminate me, etc etc......

I just do not understand why some folks insist on all these dramatic things as " proof " that a person is saved.

[JCISGD]

#7 Nebula

#8 Hunterpoet, as far as i am aware waiting on the Lord for power is not inactivity, but its also not getting busy with things we havnt been asked to do.

Its not a question of proof of salvation, its power to accomplish that which we have no power in or of ourselves to do. THose that testify to having recieved such power say they saw more souls saved in a few months than they had in all their previous years of dilgent study,prayer and witnessing.

Like i say, im not trying to tell anyone they have to do anything specific, but if it speaks to any glory to God.

[Hunterpoet]

#7 Nebula

#8 Hunterpoet, as far as i am aware waiting on the Lord for power is not inactivity, but its also not getting busy with things we havnt been asked to do.

Its not a question of proof of salvation, its power to accomplish that which we have no power in or of ourselves to do. THose that testify to having recieved such power say they saw more souls saved in a few months than they had in all their previous years of dilgent study,prayer and witnessing.

Like i say, im not trying to tell anyone they have to do anything specific, but if it speaks to any glory to God.

I'll not argue that point, it's valid and I agree...one should not attempt to do something if they have not been called or led to do so...I guess I was more shocked at the prospect of church leaders telling people not to pray repent etc etc.....that just floors me

[Matthitjah]

Arthur,

Perhaps it would be beneficial if you defined Holiness within a Biblical context?

Peace,

Dave

hi Dave, its not my intention to discuss holiness, i will leave that up to the individual. Theres no mention of sinlessness in that quote or my comments, im only saying that according to these men, "Power from above" is the FIRST thing a christian needs, but ive never heard that preached in any churches i know.

How we get that i will also leave to the individual to seek God about, i certainly dont have the answers.

That's a shame Arthur. Honestly, the premise of the OP is Holiness yet you won't or can't indentify it in a Biblical perspective.

I sincerely believe like yourself that Holiness is a missing ingredient in the Chruch in these latter days and surely would like to define it and discuss it. I'm not really sure why someone would start a thread about the subject and then not want to discuss it further. I believe that if we believe that it's missing and that somehow were falling short because of that fact that we ought discuss it. We definately ought define it in context and Biblically.

I believe that when God told Abraham to walk Perfect before Him that He was asking Abraham to be Holy, not Perfect.

There is a huge difference as far as I can draw from the Scriputres. I believe that men of God like Abraham, Moses, and King David were Holy. I believe that some of the men in the past centuries that you've mentioned were Holy. However, all of them are far from Perfect or even sinless and God points up that fact in their lives through the Scriptures for a reason and the chief reason is a discussion like this.

Because;

2Ti 3:16

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

It's not that I misuderstand what you are saying. I'm trying to flesh it out and be sure that we are on sound ground.

An Older Wiser Pastor that I know is alway's saying that a sermon or teaching is great stuff but if it fails to flesh it out or speak to the reality on the ground leaving the hearer wondering how to achieve it's context, it's largely useless. We can tell someone all day that they need to get Saved but the logical question after making our case will be, "How must I be Saved?" Jesus told Nicodemus, How. Peter told the Israelites, How.

I believe we do a disservice if we preach Holiness but leave it undefined. It's even led folks in this thread to be left without clarity and God is a God of order not chaos.

Peace,

Dave