The 12 disciple... Matthias or Paul?

[enoob57]

This was presented to me the other day and by surprise... I have never studied this and would like your helpful insights...

One side states Peter and other disciples chose out of their fleshly means...

Paul was chosen by Christ and therefore the one ...

all comments are appreciated! Love Steven

[nebula]

My understanding -

There is nothing written to indicate that Matthias ceased to be considered and treated as one of the 12 after his appointment. Some will point to the fact that Matthias we never mentioned again to support the claim that he was not a true apostle. But consider that Andrew, Thomas, Matthew, Thaddeus, etc. are not mentioned in Acts either.

Also note that James the (half) brother of Jesus is called an apostle.

Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

Barnabas is called an apostle.

Acts 14:14 - But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

Others are called apostles -

Romans 16:7 - Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Now if you consider the word "apostle" - where does it come from? Did Jesus make up a new word? Or was He using a common term, just applying a new designation to it?

I do not know what the Aramaic word would have been, but the Greek word is ἀπόστολος and simply means "a messenger, ambassador, envoy" (source)

So can people be apostles who are not the 12 of authority? Most likely.

Question is, then, was Paul ever considered by the other Apostles to be among "the 12"?

Note that Paul was not commissioned as an apostle until sometime after James the brother of John was martyred. So it could be that if Paul was considered among the 12 that he replaced James the brother of John.

???

[Guest]

A very interesting question which I believe is answered in Acts 1.

Ac 1:23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.

Ac 1:24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen.

Ac 1:25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs."

Ac 1:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Verse 24 is very clear that they trusted God to choose who would be the 12th Apostle.

God bless,

Randal

[Believer112]

A very interesting question which I believe is answered in Acts 1.

Ac 1:23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias.

Ac 1:24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen.

Ac 1:25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs."

Ac 1:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Verse 24 is very clear that they trusted God to choose who would be the 12th Apostle.

God bless,

Randal

Ac 1:26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles

I don't think God answered them that's why they cast lots. Saul was selected by God on the road to Damascus.

[enoob57]

Thank you for your comments and here is what I have concluded from my study and will give this answer:

Acts 1:11-26

11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken

up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

The Upper Room Prayer Meeting

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey.

13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and

Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas

the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the

mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Note they were waiting in obedience.... upper room where they were staying

& were in prayer and................................ continued with one accord in prayer and supplication

meditating on Scripture...........................(cf. Ps 109:8) (Matt 19:28) Note this not written yet but could have been on the discussion of memory

it was discussed among themselves and the mother Zebedee was also asking for her son's...

Matthias Chosen

15 And in those days

*And in those days

[nebula]

That was the most thorough Scripture expose I've ever seen on the subject. Nice job!

[OneLight]

Very nicely done Steve!

[logos7]

Thank you for your comments and here is what I have concluded from my study and will give this answer:

Acts 1:11-26

11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken

up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

The Upper Room Prayer Meeting

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey.

13 And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and

Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas

the son of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the

mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Note they were waiting in obedience.... upper room where they were staying

& were in prayer and................................ continued with one accord in prayer and supplication

meditating on Scripture...........................(cf. Ps 109:8) (Matt 19:28) Note this not written yet but could have been on the discussion of memory

it was discussed among themselves and the mother Zebedee was also asking for her son's...

Matthias Chosen

15 And in those days

*And in those days

[Seriousseeker]

Bible students need to keep in mind the big picture and not be overly occupied with single events. There were many disciples (followers), and God chose to Himself and for His special work twelve disciples who followed Him; those who were devoted to Him, and were given a special unction of the Spirit to be apostles.

There were also many apostles, and God sent forth the chosen twelve as His anointed Apostles to bring Israel to see the new testament in Himself, which was to include Gentiles. It was a special mission to establish the church (God's testimony for the new dispensation --period of grace). As Israel was ministered to see their Messiah (and clearly continued hostility) the work then began to focus more on Gentiles and "whosoever will" come.

Paul was given a special calling to reach the Gentiles apart from the Twelve who were mostly to Israel. It is noteworthy that Paul had a fervent heart for Jews and even went contrary to God's leading to minister to them, and had much trouble. He got back on track, as the saying goes, and went to the Gentiles fully.

Except for John who was preserved in seclusion to his end, Paul was the main teacher of church truth left to establish this new testament. He was not among the original Twelve, and yet had all the same qualifications ---saw the Lord, brought healing to many, worked miracles, and spoke redemption truth, church truth, and the truth of spiritual life.

- Seriousseeker

Edited March 2, 2011 by Seriousseeker