The freewills gospel

[childeye]

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quote name='enoob57' timestamp='1300969445' post='1661661]

name='childeye' timestamp='1300812978' post='1661201']

You have identified three different freewills. Who is the you here?

The people in these forums.

name='childeye' timestamp='1300812978' post='1661201']

One that says we have the ability to choose. One that says we have the right to choose, and one that says there are options. All of these say we morally choose between good and evil.

Are you saying choice came through sin unaffected?

I'm sorry enoob, I'm not sure I understand the question pertaining to these three freewills or the freewill I identified. Are you asking if we were fooled into disobeying? Are you asking if sin was in Satan before men? Or through men?

But you missed the important one. The free will that is free from being an enslaved will and will never choose good or evil, because it knows good and evil are a condition of the heart. Matt 19:17

17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." NKJV

?

Matthew 22:37, thou shalt love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Upon these rest all the law and prophets. Thank you ennob. please read all the replies and replies to replies.

[j102]

You have identified three different freewills. One that says we have the ability to choose. One that says we have the right to choose, and one that says there are options. All of these say we morally choose between good and evil. But you missed the important one. The free will that is free from being an enslaved will and will never choose good or evil, because it knows good and evil are a condition of the heart. The absolute which properly defines these terms is God. For freedom from sin is serving God and freedom from God is serving sin. Without this no one can understand scripture.

Fact: there is a truth and He is the light. There is a lie posing as a truth and deceiving men holding their minds captive in darkness.

Fact: Those in darkness, who have a lie for the truth, they are blind, but those who have the true light and see the Truth, they are the seeing. However, those who are deceived, think they are the seeing and believe the others, who actually see, are the blind. Is this Babylon?

Note: jesus said, I am the light the Truth and the way. He came preaching a gospel, to give sight to the blind and to make the seeing blind.

Note: Jesus said the Truth shall set you free from the slavery of sin, saying you are of your Father the devil, and his works you will do.

Consider: Jesus says the eyes are the lamps of the soul. If your eyes are good you will be filled with light. But if your light is darkness, how deep is that darkness. He is saying that if you see the Truth you will be filled with light. But if your truth is in reality lies, how deep is your deception. Hence the blind leading the blind all fall into a ditch.

Consider: The pharisees who crucified him, yet he forgave them saying "Forgive them, they know not what they do". These Pharisees had said, "will you call us blind also?" Jesus answered, "If you were blind, you'd have no sin, but because you say we see, your sin remains".

The Truth being revealed here is that God is our light, He is what makes us good or evil. He is our Truth because He is Love, and Love makes a man righteous. He is proving this theough the Old and New Testaments.

Consider: The other freewills are a false truth based on the Old Testament belief that man can be righteous through his ability to choose to be. God places before man life and death and a set of written ordinances they should are commanded to perform so as to be righteous. As we know, men fail at this and are condemned as unrighteous. The New Testament however is about God writing the laws on men's hearts and minds and causing us toi walk in His ways. This time through the Newness of the Spirit and not by the Oldness of the letter. Because the letter kills but the Spirit gives Life. God is proving there is no goodness in man apart from God.

Consider: The other terms for freewill that chooses, is the false truth of Satan in which he holds mens minds captive and I believe even his own. He became proud over what God had given him taking it as his own volition to be who he was, as if he had earned it. And this vanity became sin and his downfall. Satan proposed there was a choice in the Garden of Eden when he said we could disobey God and yet live. He implied that through the knowledge of good and evil we could be righteous of our own accord being able to know the ways of good and evil. Man not knowing God is their light and goodness, that Love made a man righteous and not knowledge, were deceived, and have been ever since. That's why there are two righteousnesses, one of works and one by grace through faith.

Consider: Abraham had two sons. One by his own efforts trying to make God's promise come to pass. Ishmael was then born through the bondswoman. Then Sarah the freewoman gave birth to Isaac whom God had promised and Sarah was the freewoman. These are types of the Old and New testament.

So, the Truth is, man cannot be good or evil by choice, so therefore cannot do good or evil by choice. God in a man or absent in a man makes him good or evil and he will do accordingly. The lesson is Love God with all your heart mind and soul for He is our righteousness. Those who are convinced and know that men's wills are ruled by either truth or lies, will turn the other cheek, love their enemies, pray for those who despise them, return good for evil, be merciful without condemnation of others, knowing the will be judged according to their own measure. They will preach the gospel trying to set others free, knowing that the deceived will persecute them for it. They will carry their cross and forgive all who nail them up there, knowing they know not what to do.

The reason the bible doesn't have any referance to a freewill is because, in the true concept of God as Spirit, as the light of man and the life of man, and man as the image of God, does not allow it. It would be like the mirror thinking it was the object instead of the reflection. Such is the difference between the Creator and the creation. This vanity is pointed out in Romans 1. The only reason early Fathers proposed freewill, was pertaining to reasoning not desire. In other words, a man's reasoning governs his actions but not his desire. For this purpose Godless or ungodliness was used.

Finally I bring up the fact that there will be those who say we can yet choose not to follow Christ or that we can choose our flesh over Gods Love. My point here is to say we don't have the ability to sin, we have the disability to sin. It may be true for some that they for whatever reason cannot repent, such as Satan, yet it may be God making examples of them, a byword for future generations. We all have a weakness and God knows this. To ponder whether to trust God or not however is in fact ignorance and betrayal, for once you know the Truth and leave it, you cannot come back. The wrath of God is upon those who suppress the truth and do not esteem God as God.

that's an interesting line of reasoning but it doesn't line up with scripture... there are multiple verses in both old and new testament that talk about people choosing to be wicked or righteous-

we still have free will to make our own decisions, even if someone is holding a gun to our head.

[MorningGlory]

So, the Truth is, man cannot be good or evil by choice, so therefore cannot do good or evil by choice.

Then none of us can ever be forgiven sin because we can't repent. Sorry; I don't believe this stuff at all.

[Fez]

So, the Truth is, man cannot be good or evil by choice, so therefore cannot do good or evil by choice.

Then none of us can ever be forgiven sin because we can't repent. Sorry; I don't believe this stuff at all.

I agree MG, also...

I do not rely on scripture therefore, for this is the first turnoff in credibility to my witness.

And this is where it started going wrong. childeye, this is a very dangerous and slippery slope, and your testimony is therefore based on your own imaginings, and not the Word of God.

Can you see where the reader might be led to believe that you start from a position of no foundation when making the above statement?

[enoob57]

One is Satanic in origin for the spirit of it contains both temptation and accusation. The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice, forbearance and forgiveness. One glorifes the creation and one the Creator. Please ask any questions you feel need to be addressed. The Temple of God is built with bricks and mortar, the strength of the mortar is agreement.

You are saying that the law of God is satanic in origin ?

[MorningGlory]

One is Satanic in origin for the spirit of it contains both temptation and accusation. The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice, forbearance and forgiveness. One glorifes the creation and one the Creator. Please ask any questions you feel need to be addressed. The Temple of God is built with bricks and mortar, the strength of the mortar is agreement.

You are saying that the law of God is satanic in origin ?

Surely there's some misunderstanding.

[Bold Believer]

name='Bold Believer' timestamp='1300898841' post='1661550']

As a Reformed Presbyterian, even I am finding this mishmash you've written difficult to understand. I'm a Calvininst and whatever this is you've written, it bears no resemblance to the teachings of Calvinism as I understand them. It doesn't even look like hyper-Calvinism. So then, what in the WORLD are you talking about?

Please grant me your patience Sir, or Ma'am, friend, fellow sojourner. I am not preaching what you perceive as Calvinism. I trust we would agree that Caivin had his perspective from which he viewed God. I am simply preaching that there are higher powers that govern and direct ones destiny or destination. It would be no different than to say sin leads to death but the Spirit of God is Life. I seek to establish in a mans conviction that there are lies and there is Truth. I preach to unbelievers and those who hate religion. Their fundamental deception is that they have a freewill and there are no higher spiritual powers that control their destiny.

The concept of free-will says that man is free to choose to believe in God or reject God. The problem with free-will is that it fails account for the sovereignty of God, making man MORE powerful than God since in this teaching, man can say No (on his own) to God.

Did I not just say this above? I recently read a thread where an Atheist was arguing with a Christian. The Christian was saying the Ahteist believed in determinism and the Atheist insisted he believed in freewill. The Atheist said that Determinism was the belief in God since He had declared the end from the beginning. This is the point of this thread. I wsh Christians would not say we have the ability to sin. I wish they would say we have the disability to sin. Rather than thinking they have the right to sin, I wish they'd view it as slavery. Instead of seeing an option to sin I wish they'd see a lust of the flesh. But most of all I wish they'd see God as the light of man and be thankful and worship Him for the Love that He is.

Scripture teaches that the reason a person chooses to believe on Jesus Christ is that God is the root cause of the belief. God is the Light which causes otherwise ignorant men to believe, and that occurs because God fore-ordained it from the Beginning. When a persons hears the Gospel and refuses it, it is evidence that they may not be chosen. (This is not to say that they might hear again and then believe; as long as a person as alive, they have a chance to prove they are chosen by believing.)

You have no argument from me here, This is my point I wish to make in fact. This is why there are two Covenants one of works and one of faith. One that thinks they make themselves righteous through obedience to written commandments, and one that knows they are made righteous by God's Spirit living in them through Faith. One is Satanic in origin for the spirit of it contains both temptation and accusation. The other inspires a Spirit of self sacrifice, forbearance and forgiveness. One glorifes the creation and one the Creator. Please ask any questions you feel need to be addressed. The Temple of God is built with bricks and mortar, the strength of the mortar is agreement.

You make a lot more sense in this post than in the previous one. Sin is slavery indeed; man's flesh is enslaved to it no matter whether that man is an unbeliever or a Christian. The difference is that a Christian knows sin is slavery; an unbeliever doesn't. A Christian knows to confess sin and ask forgiveness; an unbeliever feels no pain of conscience living in sin. A believer struggles with his or her sin; an unbeliever doesn't struggle for it his or her natural state. Believers sin and long to be free of it. Unbelievers sin and care less.

The Temple of God is not one made with hands. It is made of living stones.

[childeye]

that's an interesting line of reasoning but it doesn't line up with scripture... there are multiple verses in both old and new testament that talk about people choosing to be wicked or righteous-

we still have free will to make our own decisions, even if someone is holding a gun to our head.

I believe you misunderstand, you are using the term freewill in regards to making decisions. I am saying the knowledge of God and the ignorance of God make all the difference in what decision a man makes. It is inevitable that we will make decisions according to our reasoning. The mind if Christ is contrary to the mind of Satan, therefore the children of God return good for Evil. This is the attribute of their Father, that is why they are called the children of God. 1 John 3:9. Those born of God overcome sin through His Spirit.

Listen to this passage

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God

[childeye]

So, the Truth is, man cannot be good or evil by choice, so therefore cannot do good or evil by choice.

Then none of us can ever be forgiven sin because we can't repent. Sorry; I don't believe this stuff at all.

Yes we can repent. We can repent from thinking we choose to be good or evil, and give God the glory for our righteousness seeing it as a gift rather than a choice. Hence we would be esteeming God as God rather than our prerogative. Read the prodigal son. He repented of his choice to leave the Father upon learning the Truth. Once he regretted his decision made out of ignorance, he knew it would be better to be a servant in his Fathers house than to be free from His Fathers authority. This is all I've said.

[childeye]

You make a lot more sense in this post than in the previous one. Sin is slavery indeed; man's flesh is enslaved to it no matter whether that man is an unbeliever or a Christian. The difference is that a Christian knows sin is slavery; an unbeliever doesn't. A Christian knows to confess sin and ask forgiveness; an unbeliever feels no pain of conscience living in sin. A believer struggles with his or her sin; an unbeliever doesn't struggle for it his or her natural state. Believers sin and long to be free of it. Unbelievers sin and care less.

The Temple of God is not one made with hands. It is made of living stones.

Thank you for this response. The Temple of God is made of living stones and the strong mortar is agreement in the one Truth. You and I are in unity through the Holy Spirit. Our mutual faith upholds one another.