Where did Matter/Energy come from?

[Isaiah 6:8]

I know I am on a roll, sorry, these questions have been kicking around in my head for a while and now I feel I must let them all out.

I have been asked by atheists "Who is Gods father"

I have to ask Where did Matter/Energy come from. you see the answer to either is the same answer.

They both must have no matter how far back one of them had to always have existed.

So you must choose what you believe

No matter what you choose I belive you choose it by faith, as there is no empirical evidence for either.

[other one]

The father has always existed and he spoke matter and energy into being.

[MorningGlory]

Matter and energy, like everything else, came from God.

[Isaiah 6:8]

The simple answer is it's unknown if energy has always existed. From a science perspective, M-theory is probably the most likely model for answering the question -- I think most of the solutions for it would "say" that the multiverse is eternal so energy has always existed.

Why do people try to over complicate such an easy statement, it would seem as if you do not want to face the truth of your own belief system.

I knew that someone would try to fall back into matter or energy alone always existed. this is why I said Matter/Energy. As you know they are the same per the theory of Relativity.

So you choose that matter/energy has always existed. A Faith based statement. You have to say this by faith as you admit it is an unknown.

[nebula]

I think most of the solutions for it would "say" that the multiverse is eternal so energy has always existed.

So, you can believe in a never beginning multiverse but not a never beginning "being"?

[Isaiah 6:8]

Wait, matter and energy can come from nothing as long as they balance themselves out?... this makes no sense.

Does this mean you really don't belive in God as you have stated?

[Guest]

I know I am on a roll, sorry, these questions have been kicking around in my head for a while and now I feel I must let them all out.

I have been asked by atheists "Who is Gods father"

I have to ask Where did Matter/Energy come from. you see the answer to either is the same answer.

They both must have no matter how far back one of them had to always have existed.

So you must choose what you believe

No matter what you choose I believe you choose it by faith, as there is no empirical evidence for either.

Mass and energy are the same, as Einstein showed. If we measure the total energy of the universe we come

close to zero (the positive energy of things is compensated by the negative energy of gravitation).

Therefore, it seems that the total mass-energy in the universe equals zero, and zero does not need to come from

somewhere.

According to quantum mechanics it is perfectly possible to create matter and energy (some of it positive and some negative)

coming from absolute nothing, as long as the final balance is OK.

There is no evidence that the universe came to being with a net of positive energy, therefore it is very likely that

it has been generated by a quantum fluctuation of some form of vacuum. The fact that its total energy equals zero,

seems to point in that direction.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Genesis 1:1-5

Loud

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Psalms 19:1-3

And Clear

This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope. It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:21-23

Jesus Was Here

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Colossians 1:16-17

[Isaiah 6:8]

Wait, matter and energy can come from nothing as long as they balance themselves out?... this makes no sense.

I know it is not very intuitive but this what the equations say. Particles (with a mass) can literally come from nothing

and without a clear causal relationship to other physical events.

Usually these newly born particles annihilate themselves after a short time but their short existence can be experimentally

observed. If the physical conditions are right (for instance near a strong gravitational filed), these particles can acquire

permanent existence, and there you have them: new particles created from nothing and without a cause.

Does this mean you really don't belive in God as you have stated?

Well, that was an April's joke, but it is not the point. Being convinced about the strange behavior of quantum mechanics does

not contradict Christianity; I knew that matter can come from nothing when I was a Christian, so what? There are several

Christians working on this stuff.

I believe that the theory of evolution is much more corrosive to Christianity than the fact that matter can come from nothingness.

First off now that I have re read what you said, and drank some more coffee I can make bit better reply. First of all here is the logic.

To evolve you need a planet to evolve on. To get this planet you need evolutionary cosmology. I say evolutionary because as I have posted elsewhere the cosmology that exists, is based on the premise of there is no God, that everything happened by chance, time and the laws of physics. But to have cosmology with out God you need matter and or energy, as we know per Einstein these are one and the same.

Now if you can prove that matter/energy existed apart from God you have the groundwork for disproving him, and at the same time proving that evolution is the only answer left.

No matter what you choose, if you have no hard science to prove it, then that means you are taking that by pure blind faith. So if you choose by faith, your statement that God is illogical because he does not match what you belive of science then you are also being illogical because what you belive requires just as much faith, or more so.

Now I think you know this, as well as SamVines. This is obvious as you both have refused to answer the question straight forward, or even take the poll to stand by your belief. You realize the significance of the conclusion that matter/energy always existed because you both know that cannot be proven, and as such, you know that it is a statement taken by faith.

So you both go to the illogical but yet, somehow provable, notion that everything came from nothing. Because you would rather do this wild leap then admit that there is a God.

Now SamVines, slipped up, as he said that energy always existed in some universe somewhere at some time, according to M theory. So he stated that energy always existed, thereby he is making a statement of faith not backed by science, thus invalidating all his logical arguments against God, as his logic is based in faith.

Now you are a bit smarter, you understand the ramifications of taking something by faith alone so you attempted to prove it, using quantum physics, I think hoping that I would not have known what you were talking about. However I do, what you are talking about has never been observed. Since you are speaking in the terms of a mathematical proof. Mathematical proofs can be wrong. This is why there is yet to be a Grand Unified Theory that works on everything.

So you see, even with your proof you have no proof. You have a math formula, you do not have logic backing, as it is illogical, and you have no observed facts. Also from what you even said is this. For these particles to become permanent you need large amounts of gravity. To have large amounts of gravity, you need large amounts of mass. So if you have no mass, you have no gravity, so how then does a a particle appearing from nothing, that needs gravity to "survive" remain with out other mass to create the gravity?

If you say this is true, then, you are saying that from nothing everything came into being at the same time by chance enough sub atomic particles, came into being all at once in high enough concentration to produce enough gravity, for them to survive.

There is no proof for this, so the statement that everything came from nothing is a statement that is biased in blind faith.

So from this point on the rest of your logic falls apart, as you by trying to use faith to disprove faith. There is no logic to this.

[Isaiah 6:8]

So you both go to the illogical but yet, somehow provable, notion that everything came from nothing. Because you would rather do this wild leap then admit that there is a God.

You are misunderstanding what both of us are saying. In quantum mechanics something can come from "nothing" as long there is zero energy change. This has been observed so it's not a "wild leap."

Really, From nothing. But even in your statement you state a zero energy change. This assumes energy existed to begin with. This is truly imposable to observe. You see in order to observer anything at all you must have some sort of feedback to some sort of sensor. This feedback can be light, heat, sound etc. This is a huge challenge.

So to observer this, you would need a device that at its core, has a pure and total vacuum, with no one drop of atmosphere, then you must also remove, and subsequently block, from the vacuum, every sub atomic particle known. And then remove every last bit of heat energy from by cooling to absolute zero. (zero being absolutely no molecular movement) Something that with the technology we currently have available is unattainable.

Then with this chamber that is now completely empty, pure nothingness is created, then we need some way to observe what is going on inside. You would need some form of static observation device capable of recording many forms of data. of course you would have to create this device to work with out emitting any form of energy even by accident. this is a huge challenge as it also will need to be cooled to absolute zero and yet maintain the ability to record.

This has not been done. Therefore all observations of something from nothing cannot be that. as there was nothing done to keep out any possible random particle or energy that may come bye.

So again this is not provable by science.

[Isaiah 6:8]

However I do, what you are talking about has never been observed.

Are you sure? What about the Casimir effect?

Casimir effect is an unknown force. It is not matter coming from nothing. Not much is known about it outside it has been observed.

Again as previously stated, there is no scientific way to prove that something came from NOTHING, No energy, no sub atomic particles, no force, nothing.

So it comes down to this.

You have a faith, and it simply trying to prove that your faith makes more sense then my faith.