2 Israels?

[JohnD]

[JohnD]

Hello television watching friends... (right out of the 1960's) LOL

[Guest shiloh357]

Through Jacob

And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land. Genesis 35:10-12

Yes, Jacob!

And Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beer-sheba, and offered sacrifices unto the God of his father Isaac.

And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here am I.

And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation: Genesis 46:1-3

And So It Will Be

Love, Your Brother Joe

Jesus is the Christ.

through Jacob??

And God spake to [/size=3] Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob Jacob.

And he said, Here am I.

What is the name of the he that answered this dream voice?

The voice that called Israel, "Jacob Jacob", after God said that he was not longer to be called that; did not come from the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Praise the Lord!

This is again, wrong. God uses "Jacob" and "Israel" interchangably all throughout Scripture. So to say it was not God calling Israel "Jacob" is false.

[JohnD]

As does the Apostle Paul Jew and Israel.

Acts 21:39 (NIV)

39 Paul answered,

[Fraught]

question. this is the 2nd post where you have mentioned the 'distinct subset within israel'. what does that mean?

a group within a group.

Example: "Puppies" are a subset within the species known as "dogs". They are "dogs" but a distinctly different kind of "dog"

The remnant of Israel is a subset of Jews within the greater community of Israel.

kk, thanks

[JohnD]

As does the Apostle Paul Jew and Israel.

Acts 21:39 (NIV)

39 Paul answered, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people."

Acts 22:3 (NIV)

3 "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.

Romans 11:1 (NIV)

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

And what of this?

[JohnD]

There is a strange doctrine (Anglo-Israeliism) and typical antisemitism that teaches there is no interchangeability with Jew and Israel. This is patently false as I have dem,demonstrated.

[brakelite]

The name "Israel" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.

At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God's blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the 'Angel' asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies 'my name is Jacob'. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the 'Angel' saying "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."

Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..."

This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.

Did corporate Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God's chosen able to fulfil the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)

It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title "Israel" in it's truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Matthew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfilment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Matthew's inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8,42:1-3 .

Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Coll 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.

Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.

So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus' descendants, just as it did to Jacob's descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).

So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the 'seed' of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham's seed because they are Christ's. They are also heirs according to the promise.

This is not 'replacement ' theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now.True Israel was always exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed". It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ's righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost.

True Israel always was, and is today, exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed".

It was always God's intention that corporate Israel as a nation live up to that name. But throughout history, only a remnant did so. The same applies today. Not all who say Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but they who do the will of the Father.

Being Israel has nothing to do with being a nation, or a church, but rather about being faithful and loyal to the God who created and redeemed us.

Edited July 25, 2011 by brakelite

[Guest yod]

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus' descendants, just as it did to Jacob's descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.

that's whack. You'd have to be looking for a pre-determined justification to come to that conclusion.

The faithful remnant of the nations are added to the faithful remnant of Israel (Ephesians chapters 2 & 3)...but that can't happen unless there is an Israel to be added to. We (gentiles) become "Israel" only by being joined to what the Lord began with Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. If their descendants are not "Israel" then there is no Israel to be added to.

If you let Romans 11 say what it says (in the context of the entire book or Romans) it's clear Paul is telling Jews not to be overly proud of their heritage and telling Gentiles that God will restore the children of Jacob to the place He promised to the Patriarchs but that, for now, salvation has come to the Gentiles and they are adopted into the plan God has for Israel.

We, the faithful of the Nations and also the faithful of Israel, are to be the stewards of this faith until that day when "all Israel shall be saved"