The Trinity, free of encumbrances

[Smalcald]

I think the Trinity is actually critical, particularly right now when we see false teachings and heresy creeping back into the Church just as it was when the Trinity was first spoken of.

There is an effort to pull Christ off His throne as God, this effort is all around us it speaks to the idea that we worship the same God as Judaism and Islam, that all paths lead to God, that Christ was lower than God, that Christ is not equal in every way to God, the goal is to keep us from faith in the true Christ, who alone can forgive our sins. A God that does not have Christ as God and as our Savior cannot forgive your sins and will not forgive your sins.

The Trinity is a key bulwark against the denial of the Divinity of Christ.

[~candice~]

What version has Gen 1:1 as "God the Word"?

[other one]

QUOTE Ex 24:9-11 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.KJV

QUOTE John 6:44-46 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.KJV

Moses and friends saw the God of Israel and were not harmed.Jesus says that no man has seen the father except He that came from Him.So it seems to me that the Father that Jesus speaks of, is not what that the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament.Looking further:

QUOTE John 1:1-10 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.KJV

John 8:52-58 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.KJV

It seems to me to be saying that Jesus was what the Nation of Israel interfaced with in the old testament days. Jesus in this form was with the Father from the beginning. It seems to me that the people of the old testament days were not aware of the Father except for what they saw through the Jesus in the form he existed in before he became flesh.Further:

QUOTE Phil 2:5-11Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.KJV

It appears to me that Jesus as the word was that which the Father worked through to manifest Himself to the people of the old testament times. Jesus did not regard himself to want to be the equal to the Father so He took the form of a human to further the works of the Father on earth.Jesus was deity by being in the form of God, but it was the Father that did the work through Him when he was the Word. It appears that the only thing that has changed is Jesus is now flesh working the same way only as a man. The Father exercises His will through Jesus, now in the fleshly body.

QUOTE John 14:10-11 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.KJV

QUOTE John 17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.KJV

It seems to me that Jesus just extended the conduit from Him to us for the Father to do His work through Jesus to us so we could know the Father as the Father knows us. Thus we now can do the work of the Father. I believe this is the path and workings of the Holy Spirit

QUOTE 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.KJV

Jesus, before His ascension told the Apostles that all power and authority had been given to Him. After he has subdued everything Jesus will also be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him........ The Father.I don't see the Son always being equal with the Father, either when He was the word nor in the flesh. He will also be subject to the Father after He does the job of bringing the kingdom into it's full power over all and giving it to the Father.

1 Cor 8:4-6 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.KJV

I believe that we have so much trouble defining the trinity because our definition of the word God is not the same as the original Hebrew and Greek. When someone refers to Jesus being our Lord, they take it as denying Jesus's Deity which we know is not the case

[nebula]

I am so confused still over this whole issue regarding the Trinity *sigh*

It's because we are trying to interpret a Hebraic concept through a Greek lens.

[Smalcald]

It is not hard, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, that's it.

We can over think this to no good end.

[oldzimm]

Oldzimm's Idea of Holy Trinity-

Trinity is the design of order that God has created, the order is always in threes and any order is a unit of one and each individual in the Unit has their own role.

Holy Trinity- God (head), Jesus, Holy Ghost

Church- Jesus (head), pastors, congregation

Family- Father (head), mother, children

Look at our own government- Executive Branch (Head), Legislative Branch, Judaical Branch

The list can go on, many orders in this world are by threes and it is all by God's design.

Here is a Unit of three I read about and it makes sense.

Spirit, soul, physical body

Roles-

Man is a soul, has a spirit, both which reside in the physical body; the soul addresses the body; the spirit addresses God; the physical body addresses the world.

[JohnD]

I am so confused still over this whole issue regarding the Trinity *sigh*

Consider that the Word of God was not sent from heaven in golden plates or meteor rock. It was divinely inspired by God the Holy Spirit through the prophets (some writing others not). 2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So the word of God was revealed to man progressively (or with progression). So when we get the "throw your hands up" replies from those who refer back to the earlier portions of the Bible and say in so many words "that's not the way we used to do it..." we could throw this monkey wrench into any doctrine by the way... we are going the wrong way biblically.

We have indicators of a plurality in the Godhead as far back as Genesis 1:1.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

The Hebrew word for God is Elohiym. Elohe is the singular of the plural Elohiym. Literally Gods.

The later clarification Deuteronomy 6:4 and several others indicate that there is only one God. But there's this use of the plural elohiym throughout the Old Testament (2700 times in fact). Some say it is a plurality of royalty. But it is not right to impose a practice that began only a few hundred years ago... long after the last book of the Bible was penned... and apply it to the text dictated to Moses some 4 to 5 thousand years ago...

Rather it was to establish a compound one (or compound unity) and not negate the plurality within the unity. I use one family unit as an example of this but there are many compound unities like one corporation, one government, one nation... compound units all. You have to also bear in mind that many things were in their infancy like language and grammar. For example, the way to state what we would call superior holiness the ancient Hebrew would simply say holy holy holy. This was also deliberate in that there are three individuals who are the one compound unity (God).

Genesis 1:1-3 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

What is this Spirit OF God if not a distinct individual from the one simply called "God" who is doing the creating?

Why not, and God moved upon the face of the waters if this is one and the same individual in verses 1 and 3?

It's the same kind of method Helen Keller's teacher used to break through all her barriers. Keller was born blind and deaf and no one could break through to her except a woman who signed in her had things like "hot" over and over as she held the child's hand to something hot then repeated the words in her hand "hot hot hot."

Think back to the way your parents explained your family to you. Mother is family. Dad is family. You are family. The three of us is one family. A family is a compound unit a unity of plurality. Else is ceases to be a family. There's no such thing as a family of one.

The same is true about God and how God expressed the divine nature to humanity.

Edited May 2, 2011 by JohnDB

[JohnD]

It is not hard, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, that's it.

We can over think this to no good end.

Why do you believe there are only two persons who are God?

[JohnD]

It takes some doing to read your post, but it was well worth it because it is biblical as far as I can tell.

Jesus (preincarnate) is the one Israel dealt with. The Holy Spirit was there as well, but Jesus (not the Father) was who Israel dealt with. John 8:58 (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:13-15 (KJV)

13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Father was there and actively involved in the background of authority. It was he who sent the preincarnate Jesus and the Holy Spirit into the world... often times refereed to as the Angel of YHVH (the LORD):

Genesis 22 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

20 And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;

21 Huz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram,

22 And Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel.

23 And Bethuel begat Rebekah: these eight Milcah did bear to Nahor, Abraham

[Smalcald]

It is not hard, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, that's it.

We can over think this to no good end.

Why do you believe there are only two persons who are God?

Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that makes three.