Eternal Security

[enoob57]

Then how do you answer your own question pertaining to the scripture in Hebrews you provided?

I believe that the people described in passage in Hebrews I provided were never really saved. I believe that the author of Hebrews was trying say that it is impossible to be saved twice. I am not saying though that a Christian can't stumble in their walk then repent and continue in fellowship. I am saying that I believe that people that once said they were Christians then deny Christ even to their death bed were never saved to start with.

I would disagree strongly. It seems that those who believe that nobody who turns from Christ ever was His says the same thing. I guess it is a lot easier to believe this then to believe that we can turn from Christ and walk away. Though I would never understand why one would turn from God, I do believe it can happen.

Onelight how do you view this list and find authority to exclude yourself from its boundaries?

Rom 8:37-39

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels

nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate

us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

for me seeing myself and the elusive flesh that I indwell... I commit everything of Spiritual significance in His keeping

2 Tim 1:12

12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able

to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

NKJV

It mus be a terrible burden to maintain ones salvation by their own strength of will to remain? If we are to put all our faith and trust upon Him

Ps 64:10

The righteous shall be glad in the Lord, and trust in Him.

And all the upright in heart shall glory.

NKJV

what do you do with that which you have upon yourself in keeping yourself with Him? You know I am not grilling you, I am curios how you are thinking

in Scripture with this above! Love Steven

[JohnD]

Jeremiah 32:40 (KJV)

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

So much for the walk away from Christ theory.

[JohnD]

John 10:28-29 (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father

[OneLight]

Then how do you answer your own question pertaining to the scripture in Hebrews you provided?

I believe that the people described in passage in Hebrews I provided were never really saved. I believe that the author of Hebrews was trying say that it is impossible to be saved twice. I am not saying though that a Christian can't stumble in their walk then repent and continue in fellowship. I am saying that I believe that people that once said they were Christians then deny Christ even to their death bed were never saved to start with.

I would disagree strongly. It seems that those who believe that nobody who turns from Christ ever was His says the same thing. I guess it is a lot easier to believe this then to believe that we can turn from Christ and walk away. Though I would never understand why one would turn from God, I do believe it can happen.

Onelight how do you view this list and find authority to exclude yourself from its boundaries?

Rom 8:37-39

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels

nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate

us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

for me seeing myself and the elusive flesh that I indwell... I commit everything of Spiritual significance in His keeping

2 Tim 1:12

12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able

to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

NKJV

It mus be a terrible burden to maintain ones salvation by their own strength of will to remain? If we are to put all our faith and trust upon Him

Ps 64:10

The righteous shall be glad in the Lord, and trust in Him.

And all the upright in heart shall glory.

NKJV

what do you do with that which you have upon yourself in keeping yourself with Him? You know I am not grilling you, I am curios how you are thinking

in Scripture with this above! Love Steven

First, I never said I maintain my own salvation, brother. You are reading something into my words that I never said. I could no more maintain my own salvation then save myself. I hope my words below better explains my belief.

All these verses you provided point at someone wanting to remain, do they not? Allow me to ask this, did Jesus force you to believe and accept His salvation? If He did not, then why would He force someone to remain who no longer wants to believe? That is why it is hard for people to accept that there are verses that state that if someone turns, he can not come back. They refuse to accept that people can change their mind. Lets look again at Hebrews 6:4-6 ...

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

For those who believe nobody can turn from God and give up their salvation, this verse, to them, means they never were saved in the first place. I disagree. The words themselves do not support their understanding. What is being enlightened, or tasting the heavenly gift, of become partakers of the Holy Spirit, or tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come if it is not, in fact, believing Christ through salvation? How can anyone who refuses Christ Jesus partake in the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit will try and convict them of their sins, but this is not partaking of Him.

As I had mentioned before, and still believe, there is no way anyone can be removed from salvation if they choose to stay. Jesus is more then capable to keep them. At the same time, God does not force us to accept salvation, nor will He force us to remain. Let's look at Rom 8:37-39 ...

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels

nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate

us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have read these verses more then a thousand times, looking for the word "you", or a hint of it, but never can find it. These verses point to everything else except yourself. It is far more comfortable, but dangerous, to believe that we can never change our minds toward Christ, but I need to ask again, does God force people to accept anything? If so, there is no free will.

Today, the body is full of fence sitters. We see it everywhere and read how those who once were solid in Christ are now changing their doctrine to include sin, a lie. We are also told that there will be a falling away. Ask yourself this, if they were never His in the first place, what are they falling away from?

Again, though I can not comprehend why someone would turn from the salvation they received in Christ, I do not neglect the fact that they can if they so choose to. I believe 100% in free will, for God has always given us a choice. To say that we have free will to accept, but not to deny, is a contradiction in itself. Either we have complete free will or we have no free will.

Those who accept Jesus, walk and grow in Christ, struggle through the hardest of tests and come out victoriously, desiring to remain, there is nothing that can remove them from salvation. For me to believe this, I also have to accept that if someone, at a point in time, who wishes to give it all up, for whatever reason they have, will not be forced to remain. I have always said this and I will echo it again, God does not make puppets. He made humans and imparted in them free will.

I hope this better explains what I believe.

In His Love,

Alan

[OneLight]

Jeremiah 32:40 (KJV)

40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

So much for the walk away from Christ theory.

Yes, we can make scripture say what we want when we just pluck out one verse. Let's read it in its full context.

God’s Assurance of the People’s Return

26 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 27 “Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me? 28 Therefore thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I will give this city into the hand of the Chaldeans, into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and he shall take it. 29 And the Chaldeans who fight against this city shall come and set fire to this city and burn it, with the houses on whose roofs they have offered incense to Baal and poured out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke Me to anger; 30 because the children of Israel and the children of Judah have done only evil before Me from their youth. For the children of Israel have provoked Me only to anger with the work of their hands,’ says the LORD. 31 ‘For this city has been to Me a provocation of My anger and My fury from the day that they built it, even to this day; so I will remove it from before My face 32 because of all the evil of the children of Israel and the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke Me to anger—they, their kings, their princes, their priests, their prophets, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 33 And they have turned to Me the back, and not the face; though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not listened to receive instruction. 34 But they set their abominations in the house which is called by My name, to defile it. 35 And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’

36 “Now therefore, thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, concerning this city of which you say, ‘It shall be delivered into the hand of the king of Babylon by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: 37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries where I have driven them in My anger, in My fury, and in great wrath; I will bring them back to this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely. 38 They shall be My people, and I will be their God; 39 then I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me forever, for the good of them and their children after them. 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. 41 Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.’

42 “For thus says the LORD: ‘Just as I have brought all this great calamity on this people, so I will bring on them all the good that I have promised them. 43 And fields will be bought in this land of which you say, “It is desolate, without man or beast; it has been given into the hand of the Chaldeans.” 44 Men will buy fields for money, sign deeds and seal them, and take witnesses, in the land of Benjamin, in the places around Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, and in the cities of the South; for I will cause their captives to return,’ says the LORD.”

So, who is this talking about? Israel and Judah, during a certain time in history, through the prophet Jeremiah. It is not meant for today. Taking prophecy meant for another people and time and trying to make it for today is wrong.

[OneLight]

John 10:28-29 (KJV)

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father

[Guest shiloh357]

Eternal Security is not an excuse or a free pass to live in sin. Rather it is an expression of the faithfulness of God to His children. The doctrine of Eternal Security is not that you can sin all you want and get away with it. Eternal Security teaches that God is faithful and is not fickle or preferential in His love. We can trust Him to keep His promises with regard to His love and with regard to His salvation. He is not going to give us salvation today and then decide tomorrow to take it away. He is steadfast and sure and unchanging and we who are His children can know that He will be faithful. Even when we mess up in a genuine attempt to serve Him, His grace is there to pick us up and enable us to continue to follow and serve Him. In Eternal Security, grace is the expectation of holy living.

Ok now we're getting down to it. I agree with you that Eternal Security is not an excuse to live in sin. That's why Paul urges the Philippians in Phil 2:12 to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. And yes we can absolutely trust that God is faithful to his promises.

Where I don't fully agree with you is God's graces is not the expectation of holy living. God's grace is a gift that we can not pay for with holy living. We can not earn grace. All our righteous deeds are like filthy rags to God's holiness. God's mercy and grace are free gifts that he offers to everyone and those that accept these gifts and in doing so accept him as God receive them.

Yes, but my point is that it is not the same as falling away from the Lord.

In your view then would someone that "fell away" from the Lord be able to ask for salvation again and receive it?

Grace IS the expectation of holy living. The Bible says so:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:11-14)

Grace teaches to be holy and to reject ungodliness in view of Christ's return. So if you disagree with me, you also disagree with Scripture, buddy.

I did not say we pay for grace with holy living or earn grace. I said that holy living is the product of grace. Please try to read what I say instead of assigning things to me that I did not say.

As for falling away, that refers to apostascy and an apostate is not an ex-Christian. An apostate is a person who acquieses to the truth but denies it anyway. They know the truth but walk away from it. They would not repent anyway.

If a Christian stumbles and sins, of course they can be forgiven and fellowship with the Lord is restored.

[Guest borderline]

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Edited July 16, 2012 by borderline

[Guest]

The ones of Heb. 6:1-6 were not Born Again Christians one says??? How more Born Again can one be, than to BE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST!

And is this an undenominational bunch (site) or not???

--Elijah

Yes, it is nondenominational. You don't have to be in a denomination to believe that the shed blood of Christ on the cross was sufficient enough to cover all of the sins of man, past, present and future; and to believe that when a person accepts His Sacrifice and is born again, not just a partaker of the Holy Spirit but consumed by the Holy Spirit, that such a human could ever choose to walk away from Jesus Christ. It just doesn't happen! "No created thing" can take us away. We are all created things, are we not?

The only people who would (or could) ever turn their backs on Christ, never had His Spirit within them. They may have thought they had, just as the Pharisees and Sadducee believed that they were the religious elite of their time. Yet Christ called them "hypocrites!" That's all they were was religious, they were out for themselves and what they could get from man while believing in a different god than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Such is the plight of the "Church" today. And that's God's Truth. Nondenominational, simple Truth that many people choose to twist and turn in order to make it not about Christ, but about themselves, as if they have the power to change the Will of God. I can tell you that I am NOT one of those. And I don't sin freely or willfully, as many seem to think about people who fully trust in the saving power of the Lord, do. Sure, I sin, I may loose some rewards in heaven when I get there, but God will never revoke my Justification through the cleansing Blood of The Lamb. He has promised. And our God does what He says He will do. I realize that no amount of words or scripture will change the mind of a person who chooses to believe in the rubbish of loosing one's salvation, or giving it back if you choose to think of it like that; I also realize that the only thing I ever needed to do was to accept what God, as Christ, did on that Cross and by rising on the third was enough to pay for my sins in order to be saved. And there is nothing else required, and nothing any one can ever say or do that will change my mind that what I have said is not true and sufficient. And I have the Lord's Peace. May you have it also.

[OneLight]

Grace IS the expectation of holy living. The Bible says so:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:11-14)

Grace teaches to be holy and to reject ungodliness in view of Christ's return. So if you disagree with me, you also disagree with Scripture, buddy.

I did not say we pay for grace with holy living or earn grace. I said that holy living is the product of grace. Please try to read what I say instead of assigning things to me that I did not say.

As for falling away, that refers to apostascy and an apostate is not an ex-Christian. An apostate is a person who acquieses to the truth but denies it anyway. They know the truth but walk away from it. They would not repent anyway.

If a Christian stumbles and sins, of course they can be forgiven and fellowship with the Lord is restored.

The word 'fall away' in Hebrews 6:6 isn't the same word as 'falling away' in 2 Thes. 2.

Apostasy isn't mentioned in Hebrews 6:6. Fall away in Hebrews 6 is parapipto...not apostasy.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3895&t=KJV

This verse and this word (parapipto) is probably one reason why the experts and those of you who believe them, mis-interpret these passages and esp. the word apostasy. Did they or 'you' do a word study on it?

I'm amazed how many people accept and attribute this falling away (apostasy) to the church when 2 Thes. 2 clearly indicates it has something to do with the man of sin.

Some take pleasure in doing word searches. They allow one to see the original structure of a statement by understanding the true meaning of the words being used. You are correct in stating that the meaning of "fall away" in the verse comes from parapipto, but digging into the meaning of this word I have found it to mean: To fall aside or away, err, stray,lapse. Used only in Hebrews 6:6, denoting a falling away, an abandonment, a deliberate act of sin. (The Complete Word Study Dictionary)