hell is for the sin, not the sinner

[ayin jade]

"love never fails" an unbeliever might say that if Gods love never fails then He wouldnt fail them in death either and that He would still love them and let them be loved, not condemned.

Unbelievers could say that, but they would be wrong.

God loves us so much that even tho we have sinned against Him and are condemned for our sins, He gave Himself up to redeem us. Still it is upon us to repent and believe in Jesus. Otherwise someone is relying on themself to be redeemed and not on Jesus.

God has reached out to sinful man. Man needs to own up to his sinfulness and turn to the Lord.

[OneLight]

Have you also considered what true love really is? We are given the basic parameters from 1 Corinthians 13.

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."

This is how God treats us, with a pureness of love that these words can not do justice to. Yet, if we look, we will find how we can love like this toward God and each other. This is why God can allow us to make even the wrongest decision anyone can ever make. It take this pure love for Him to allow us to reject Him and live eternity without Him. It is our choice, not His.

"love never fails" an unbeliever might say that if Gods love never fails then He wouldnt fail them in death either and that He would still love them and let them be loved, not condemned.

You miss the whole meaning.

God suffers long by what we choose not to do, accept the sacrifice of His Son.

God is kind and never treats us badly as we seek to decide what we hold closest.

God does not envy anything as we seek our way.

God does not parade Himself as in trying to overpower all choices.

He is not vain in His ways.

God does not force a decision before its time.

He does not force Himself onto us and He does not deny us a choice.

God does not get angry as we seek what we are looking for and does not think bad of us as we search.

He is not happy as we walk in darkness, thinking "See, my way is better"!

God does rejoice when we find the truth about our situation for truths sake, for He took upon Himself our sins so we can know His truth, for He believes we can make the right decision for He made us in His image so we can be like Him, hoping that we will make the right choices while He sits and watches us find our way, shining the light so all can see, even when we close our eyes to His light. This love never fails to be love.

You also seem to think an unbeliever never had a choice. Every living being had a choice, even those who never heard of God.

Romans 1:18-22

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools"

God has made Himself known to everyone, if they were willing to follow their own heart and not the ways of the world. Those who choose the world did not do it without understanding, for their own conscious cried out when they began to live in the wrong way. Nobody can say God never gave them a chance.

[Gods_girl111]

You also seem to think an unbeliever never had a choice. Every living being had a choice, even those who never heard of God.

Romans 1:18-22

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools"

God has made Himself known to everyone, if they were willing to follow their own heart and not the ways of the world. Those who choose the world did not do it without understanding, for their own conscious cried out when they began to live in the wrong way. Nobody can say God never gave them a chance.

im not saying unbelievers never had/have a choice or God was never brought to their attention. i dont know how God works in other peoples lives, but in mine.. i grew up in a christian home and by the age of 12 or 13 i decided i didnt believe in God. i had very strong beliefs against Him. i know now He tried showing Himself to me numerous times, but i didnt know it was Him at the time. when He did show Himself to me and i recognized Him, it took my beliefs as an atheist and the things that i went through at the time, for me to get to where im at with Him today. telling and unbeliever that God is real is like telling them santa clause is real. as adults, we know for a fact santa is not real, and if someone came up to you and tried telling you he was and showed you some presents left under your tree and cookies that had been eaten, you would look at them like their crazy. when i was an atheist i hated the idea of a god. i hated the thought that there was some supreme being that could make everything better but allows all of this corruption to happen. but when He showed Himself to me and i knew it was Him, those thoughts didnt even cross my mind. it took 1 second for me to start shaking with excitement. all of my hatred toward God was removed. if God really showed Himself to everyone like He did me, then we would all believe. im sure He gives unbelievers little glimpses that help them get through life, but He doesnt reveal Himself fully. Jesus came to save the lost, not the ones who are saved. we, as Christians are saved, we know God. Jesus is pleading EVERYONES case. we arent going to change anyones mind about God, its our job to plant a seed and pray that God waters it. if its in His will for someone to believe, then He'll make Himself known. but like i said in an earlier post, everything happens for a reason, some people never know God in this life for a reason. if they did, then things wouldnt turn out the way theyre supposed to. if everyone believed in God and understood Him the way He truly is, then no one would have anything to complain about, because everyone would treat each other with love, and this would be Heaven. adam and eve had God standing before them and He told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge, but they didnt believe in what He said. how in the world would we expect someone to believe us when we say God is real? how could we expect them to read the Bible like it was more than a fairy tale? theres no way to, unless God NEEDS them to believe in Him and He makes Himself known. God wants nothing more than to be happy and for us to know Him and to be happy, and in order for us to enter His world this world and these bodies have to suffer and go through a process.

[Gods_girl111]

John 15:16a Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain

[ayin jade]

John 15:16a Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain

Read that in context. Jesus is talking to His disciples at the Last Supper. He chose His disciples, and ordained them to spread His gospel.

[ayin jade]

if God really showed Himself to everyone like He did me, then we would all believe. im sure He gives unbelievers little glimpses that help them get through life, but He doesnt reveal Himself fully.

He did reveal Himself, as Jesus on earth. Folks saw Him and still refused to believe.

Jesus came to save the lost, not the ones who are saved.

Everyone is lost without the atonement of Jesus. The only ones who end up saved are those who believe in Him, as I showed you through verses earlier.

how in the world would we expect someone to believe us when we say God is real? how could we expect them to read the Bible like it was more than a fairy tale? theres no way to, unless God NEEDS them to believe in Him and He makes Himself known.

God doesnt need us. He wants us. He died on the cross for us. But we still need to believe in Him to be saved.

God wants nothing more than to be happy and for us to know Him and to be happy, and in order for us to enter His world this world and these bodies have to suffer and go through a process.

Not remotely in scripture. 1) God doesnt promise us happiness, nor does He just want us to be happy (some find happiness in sinning and God doesnt want that.) 2) We cannot enter His world by first entering this world and suffering. Any suffering we go through doesnt make us eligible for being saved. It is His suffering, His death on the cross that saves us, when we believe.

[winsomebulldog]

Have you also considered what true love really is? We are given the basic parameters from 1 Corinthians 13.

"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."

This is how God treats us, with a pureness of love that these words can not do justice to. Yet, if we look, we will find how we can love like this toward God and each other. This is why God can allow us to make even the wrongest decision anyone can ever make. It take this pure love for Him to allow us to reject Him and live eternity without Him. It is our choice, not His.

"love never fails" an unbeliever might say that if Gods love never fails then He wouldnt fail them in death either and that He would still love them and let them be loved, not condemned.

You're making some broad judgments about how God's love works. You said you're a parent, so I'll use that as an example. (Because God is the Father of us all.)

If your child (heaven forbid!) were to grow up and do something terrible, say get drunk and drive and kill a family in an accident, I would assume that you would not stop loving him or her because of this terrible thing they'd done. You would love them as they were arrested and tried, then mourn deeply as they were taken to jail - the direct consequence of their crime. You would be heartbroken to lose your ability to fellowship with them, to see them suffer in spite of the fact that they committed a crime and were paying the price for it. You would not, however, argue that they should not be sent to prison for what they'd done because you love them. That just isn't how it works.

By the same token, it is very true that God loves us all and wishes that we would all come to a personal saving knowledge of Him and have a relationship with Him. He does not want anyone to go to hell, to face an eternity of separation from Him. I imagine His heart breaks every time someone makes the choice to reject Him. The fact is, however, that we are the ones who choose whether or not we will follow God. Like the child in the analogy above, we make the choice to do something that carries dire consequences. Our Father cannot ignore those consequences simply because He loves us.

You clearly have a loving heart, which is why you cannot fathom that God would send anyone to hell, but the fact is, He does not send anyone there. Those who go to hell make that choice when they reject God. It may not seem fair, but it is the truth according to the Bible. God gave us the choice to choose where we would spend eternity, in His presence or out of it. Anyone who goes to hell will not be able to say God sent them there. They can only look to themselves to blame.

[winsomebulldog]

You also seem to think an unbeliever never had a choice. Every living being had a choice, even those who never heard of God.

Romans 1:18-22

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools"

God has made Himself known to everyone, if they were willing to follow their own heart and not the ways of the world. Those who choose the world did not do it without understanding, for their own conscious cried out when they began to live in the wrong way. Nobody can say God never gave them a chance.

im not saying unbelievers never had/have a choice or God was never brought to their attention. i dont know how God works in other peoples lives, but in mine.. i grew up in a christian home and by the age of 12 or 13 i decided i didnt believe in God. i had very strong beliefs against Him. i know now He tried showing Himself to me numerous times, but i didnt know it was Him at the time. when He did show Himself to me and i recognized Him, it took my beliefs as an atheist and the things that i went through at the time, for me to get to where im at with Him today. telling and unbeliever that God is real is like telling them santa clause is real. as adults, we know for a fact santa is not real, and if someone came up to you and tried telling you he was and showed you some presents left under your tree and cookies that had been eaten, you would look at them like their crazy. when i was an atheist i hated the idea of a god. i hated the thought that there was some supreme being that could make everything better but allows all of this corruption to happen. but when He showed Himself to me and i knew it was Him, those thoughts didnt even cross my mind. it took 1 second for me to start shaking with excitement. all of my hatred toward God was removed. if God really showed Himself to everyone like He did me, then we would all believe. im sure He gives unbelievers little glimpses that help them get through life, but He doesnt reveal Himself fully. Jesus came to save the lost, not the ones who are saved. we, as Christians are saved, we know God. Jesus is pleading EVERYONES case. we arent going to change anyones mind about God, its our job to plant a seed and pray that God waters it. if its in His will for someone to believe, then He'll make Himself known. but like i said in an earlier post, everything happens for a reason, some people never know God in this life for a reason. if they did, then things wouldnt turn out the way theyre supposed to. if everyone believed in God and understood Him the way He truly is, then no one would have anything to complain about, because everyone would treat each other with love, and this would be Heaven. adam and eve had God standing before them and He told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge, but they didnt believe in what He said. how in the world would we expect someone to believe us when we say God is real? how could we expect them to read the Bible like it was more than a fairy tale? theres no way to, unless God NEEDS them to believe in Him and He makes Himself known. God wants nothing more than to be happy and for us to know Him and to be happy, and in order for us to enter His world this world and these bodies have to suffer and go through a process.

First off, I think you are right when you talk about everything happening for a reason. I have endured a lot of loss in my life and because of that, I am gifted with a deep understanding of grief. I can share that understanding and the compassion that comes from it with others who are grieving. This is just one example of how God uses experiences in our lives to teach us how to help others. And this is specifically discussed in Scripture:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 2 Cor 1:3-4 (NKJV)

As Christians we are to use our experiences to glorify God, whether those experiences happened before or after we were saved. God uses everything to shape us into useful tools for Himself.

Secondly, you raise a valid point when you say we cannot convince unbelievers that they ought to believe in God. We could beat them to death with the Bible but it wouldn't change a thing in their minds. However, you err when you suggest that the only way to come to God is for Him to somehow "reveal" Himself to us.

Please understand that I am in no way calling into question your testimony about how you came to know God. We all have a personal, individual experience of salvation. I honestly believe it varies from one person to the next as to precisely what they experience at that moment. (The how and why always goes back to Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross, but the personal experience seems to vary greatly.) But the Bible tells us that some of us will come to know God without having ever seen Him.

Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29 (NKJV)

Lastly, God does not NEED us to do anything. I think this was just a poor choice of words, since what I believe you were trying to say is that no one comes to God without Him first prompting them to do so. But the fact is, if we must be forced into acceptance of the truth of God, then it would negate the reality of free will.

I think you have a unique perspective, since you come from a background as an atheist. That could be a powerful testimony for God. But you cannot change scripture because it hurts your feelings to imagine God allowing anyone to go to hell. You must understand that we are not God. We cannot begin to fathom His heart or thoughts. We all find ourselves occasionally trying to place our morals, our reasoning, our understanding onto how and/or why God allows things to happen. But we are terribly wrong to do so. God is beyond our understanding. We do Him a great disservice when we try to fit Him into our nature by attributing our severely limited emotions and ethics to Him.

[OneLight]

You also seem to think an unbeliever never had a choice. Every living being had a choice, even those who never heard of God.

Romans 1:18-22

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools"

God has made Himself known to everyone, if they were willing to follow their own heart and not the ways of the world. Those who choose the world did not do it without understanding, for their own conscious cried out when they began to live in the wrong way. Nobody can say God never gave them a chance.

im not saying unbelievers never had/have a choice or God was never brought to their attention. i dont know how God works in other peoples lives, but in mine.. i grew up in a christian home and by the age of 12 or 13 i decided i didnt believe in God. i had very strong beliefs against Him. i know now He tried showing Himself to me numerous times, but i didnt know it was Him at the time. when He did show Himself to me and i recognized Him, it took my beliefs as an atheist and the things that i went through at the time, for me to get to where im at with Him today. telling and unbeliever that God is real is like telling them santa clause is real. as adults, we know for a fact santa is not real, and if someone came up to you and tried telling you he was and showed you some presents left under your tree and cookies that had been eaten, you would look at them like their crazy. when i was an atheist i hated the idea of a god. i hated the thought that there was some supreme being that could make everything better but allows all of this corruption to happen. but when He showed Himself to me and i knew it was Him, those thoughts didnt even cross my mind. it took 1 second for me to start shaking with excitement. all of my hatred toward God was removed. if God really showed Himself to everyone like He did me, then we would all believe. im sure He gives unbelievers little glimpses that help them get through life, but He doesnt reveal Himself fully. Jesus came to save the lost, not the ones who are saved. we, as Christians are saved, we know God. Jesus is pleading EVERYONES case. we arent going to change anyones mind about God, its our job to plant a seed and pray that God waters it. if its in His will for someone to believe, then He'll make Himself known. but like i said in an earlier post, everything happens for a reason, some people never know God in this life for a reason. if they did, then things wouldnt turn out the way theyre supposed to. if everyone believed in God and understood Him the way He truly is, then no one would have anything to complain about, because everyone would treat each other with love, and this would be Heaven. adam and eve had God standing before them and He told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge, but they didnt believe in what He said. how in the world would we expect someone to believe us when we say God is real? how could we expect them to read the Bible like it was more than a fairy tale? theres no way to, unless God NEEDS them to believe in Him and He makes Himself known. God wants nothing more than to be happy and for us to know Him and to be happy, and in order for us to enter His world this world and these bodies have to suffer and go through a process.

It is a bit confusing, isn't it. Be assured that God has made himself known to all. I do believe that you are saying God should make himself known without a doubt. He does. Yet, He cannot be blamed if people disbelieve what they are being shown. The Holy Spirit has come to convict the world of sin, which He does. What is the best known verses in the world? John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. " Do you really believe that God would sacrifice His own Son and not move in the hearts of everyone to know this?

So many times I have heard that if God was God He would not send anyone to hell? All this tells me is that people refuse to accept responsibility for what they do, blaming God for not doing enough. This is not accepting that we have a choice. This is saying that we should be robots. God made us in Their image, with a mind to think and decide, a heart to feel and a spirit that can commune with Him. IF you would like, I can bring in a whole bunch of scripture that explains this, but it would be up to you to research if what I said is the truth or not.

Instead of digging your heals in claiming that if God were God he would never let anyone go to hell, try understanding why He does. Try understanding the concept of free will and pour responsibilities.

[Gods_girl111]

i have a lot of beliefs that are controversial, and i completely understand why. but in my walk with God, He has put things on my heart and when i talk to people about them, they try to shake my beliefs. but to deny my beliefs, in my case, would be like denying God Himself. i made an account on here a month or two ago because ive felt for a while God wants me to bring my understanding to other people. i know that my beliefs arent going to be understood, and some of them are hard to explain, so its taken me a while to start explaining my beliefs.

one thing people do is give me scripture that goes against my beliefs. one thing i believe is that Bible leaves some things out, and maybe even adds things. ive wondered for a long time why only matthew, mark, luke and john have gospels, but the other disciples dont. and then a month or so ago i was watching the history channel and there was a show on "the lost gospels" and how, whatever king/emperor is was, took out gospels from the Bible to fit how he wanted his world to be shaped. and this is something i strongly believe in.

i know God works in everyones lives differently and the beliefs Hes put on my heart arent meant for everyone to understand.