removing a church family from church

[winsomebulldog]

Well, I can address this from a personal perspective because I was someone who lived with my husband before we were married. We were both saved. I knew very well that it was wrong. He did as well, but still rejected the idea of getting married. He had his reasons. I was young (16) when we met. I was not looking for a potential husband, he (21 & in college) was not looking for a potential wife. God brought us together, though it took a long time for my husband to trust that truth. (The story is just too long to go into here. Read if you want the whole story.) Eventually I nagged him into getting married. We did not do it at a church, but got married on a Saturday morning at a local courthouse with my husband's parents as our witnesses.

That was almost 20 years ago and we are not only very happily married, but our marriage has been blessed tremendously. Both of us are so grateful that God put us together. I cannot express how perfectly suited we are for one another. And anyone who dares to try to credit "luck" or "fate" for our meeting will get an immediate response from me that there is no such thing as luck or fate. Nor was it coincidence. My husband and I were quite literally "made" for each other.

Now, having said all this, I am commenting to let you know that I completely support your actions, e. We did not get married in a church because we knew very well that we were out of the will of God. We did get married in order to bring our lives back into His will, and we repented of our sin. God has blessed our union since we did that, too.

The couple you mentioned allowed her brother to justify their sinful behavior. No doubt they did it because it made them feel better about what they were doing. (My husband used to make statements like, "we're married in the eyes of God.") We are all pretty good at making excuses and justifications for the sin we just don't want to give up. Anyway, when her brother not only went in direct opposition to God's Word, and then not only refused to admit his sin, but began actively working to encourage other church members to "take sides" in the matter, they ceased to be a family in need of counseling and instruction and became a serious threat to the church as a whole.

I agree with the suggestions of other posters that the church is made up of sinners and is a gathering place for sinners, where we are supposed to learn and grow. But, there comes a time when sincere questions or uncertainty becomes a deliberate, stubborn refusal to accept either Godly instruction or correction. That's when the church has to set aside the disruptive member/s until they repent of their behavior. It is never an easy thing to do. Nor should it be. But it does have to be done sometimes, for the protection of the rest of the church body. This is clearly supported by the scriptures that have already been posted.

This couple and her brother were clearly less concerned by the truth of God's Word than they were with excusing/justifying their behavior and/or proving they were "right." It's one thing to have a legitimate disagreement on something the Bible says or the express meaning of a particular verse or passage. (This is something we all face, especially among different denominations.) But there's a line that this family crossed when they began seeking other members of the congregation to join their "side" in opposing the pastor and the Biblical teaching on marriage and fornication. There is simply no excuse for it. We can only pray that they repent of it and again place their full trust in the Bible instead of their personal interpretations of what they want the Bible to say.

In short (which I know very well this isn't ) you did the only thing you could. You counseled them on the right thing to do. You confronted them when they began dividing the church on the issue. You gave them the opportunity to at the very least come up with a Scriptural basis for their position - which we all know is not possible since the Bible is very clear on what sexual relations before marriage is - and you asked them to stop sowing discord in the church. They refused all these, choosing to remain obstinate about their sin. At that point you, as the pastor, had to think about the rest of your congregation. God bless you for having the fortitude to do what had to be done. And I pray that the family will swallow their pride and admit their wrong to God. He can't bless willful sin. Even if they do get married, it won't be a truly happy union until/unless they get right with God.

[e lansing]

Just a question - Is the church for sinners or for Christians?

I think of Christ eating with the sinners not with the Pharisees. You have no idea what the rest of your congregatiion is doing behind closed doors - are they the real upstanding citizens of the congregation that you think they are? Christ came to save the very ones that you asked to leave your congregation. I would have befriended them and got them to marry as soon as possible. It seems to me that just by asking the question you are not certain that you did the right thing as do others of your congregation. That couple could have been nutured into a ministering couple for your church. Why judge them as harshly as you have? I guess for me the church is for sinners who need to be shown the love of the Father.

I'm going to have to agree with you here, Littlelambs. The church is for EXACTLY people like this young couple. Yes, they sinned but....who hasn't? I would be afraid that tossing them out might turn them from the Lord. Just my two cents and no refunds.

So just because we are sinners all can come to church and do as they please? Are these not already turned from the Lord with their blatant sin? So It would be fine If you went to church and found christians crackin 40oz beers in the common area carring on like its some kind of party? What about if women showed up in string bikinies? Now that pot somkin is legal, why not allow people to twist up, heck let the church provide the papers and pipes with "Jesus loves u" on the box of ziz zags?? WHy not WE ALL HAVE SINNED AND I GUESS WE CANT HELP IT!!! The church has now become the parking lot of every night club in this country! Great! What a way to reach them for Jesus! I digress, Thanks for sharing.

e

I think you got a little carried away there for I didn't say ANYTHING even remotely connected to your rant. You tossed sinners out. Are you free of sin yourself? I'm not and I can admit it.

Your are right you did not say "anything" but anythig is what it is when leadership in achurch chooses not to confront or correct sin in their church. My point still stands, which is as Christians we all have to live by scriptural standards. For those who love God, living by his word is our joy, for those who dont love God, His word means very little. The issue is not if we are sinners or not, yes we are all sinners, but paul and Jesus remove people from churches and temples, not because they were sinners but because they were sinning against God and His establishment for all to see with no regard for God and His establishment. And yes Paul could admitt he was a sinner but also know that as christians we must maintain standards and these standard are there for the protection of the of the flock as well as anyone who chooses to follow them. I am suprised, you do dont get my point or dont see the love in my choice to remove these people. I am not ok with sending the message that sin does not matter. This couple dont care what the bible says about sexual sin, and yet they think they are in good standing with God. Do you think that they would go to heaven under these condidions? I know Im a sinner and Im not perfect, but this does not mean that I can live the way i used to live, nor do i want to, neither does my sinful condition justify my choice to sin. Just because I intend to do the right thing later does not mean Im right at the present time. I think its better to be put out of a church then to be put out of heaven, this what Paul was getting in 1cor 5. I know I did the right thing, some agree and some disagree and this fine, I was just looking for feed back and I got it. Thanks for sharing

e

[e lansing]

Well, I can address this from a personal perspective because I was someone who lived with my husband before we were married. We were both saved. I knew very well that it was wrong. He did as well, but still rejected the idea of getting married. He had his reasons. I was young (16) when we met. I was not looking for a potential husband, he (21 & in college) was not looking for a potential wife. God brought us together, though it took a long time for my husband to trust that truth. (The story is just too long to go into here. Read if you want the whole story.) Eventually I nagged him into getting married. We did not do it at a church, but got married on a Saturday morning at a local courthouse with my husband's parents as our witnesses.

That was almost 20 years ago and we are not only very happily married, but our marriage has been blessed tremendously. Both of us are so grateful that God put us together. I cannot express how perfectly suited we are for one another. And anyone who dares to try to credit "luck" or "fate" for our meeting will get an immediate response from me that there is no such thing as luck or fate. Nor was it coincidence. My husband and I were quite literally "made" for each other.

Now, having said all this, I am commenting to let you know that I completely support your actions, e. We did not get married in a church because we knew very well that we were out of the will of God. We did get married in order to bring our lives back into His will, and we repented of our sin. God has blessed our union since we did that, too.

The couple you mentioned allowed her brother to justify their sinful behavior. No doubt they did it because it made them feel better about what they were doing. (My husband used to make statements like, "we're married in the eyes of God.") We are all pretty good at making excuses and justifications for the sin we just don't want to give up. Anyway, when her brother not only went in direct opposition to God's Word, and then not only refused to admit his sin, but began actively working to encourage other church members to "take sides" in the matter, they ceased to be a family in need of counseling and instruction and became a serious threat to the church as a whole.

I agree with the suggestions of other posters that the church is made up of sinners and is a gathering place for sinners, where we are supposed to learn and grow. But, there comes a time when sincere questions or uncertainty becomes a deliberate, stubborn refusal to accept either Godly instruction or correction. That's when the church has to set aside the disruptive member/s until they repent of their behavior. It is never an easy thing to do. Nor should it be. But it does have to be done sometimes, for the protection of the rest of the church body. This is clearly supported by the scriptures that have already been posted.

This couple and her brother were clearly less concerned by the truth of God's Word than they were with excusing/justifying their behavior and/or proving they were "right." It's one thing to have a legitimate disagreement on something the Bible says or the express meaning of a particular verse or passage. (This is something we all face, especially among different denominations.) But there's a line that this family crossed when they began seeking other members of the congregation to join their "side" in opposing the pastor and the Biblical teaching on marriage and fornication. There is simply no excuse for it. We can only pray that they repent of it and again place their full trust in the Bible instead of their personal interpretations of what they want the Bible to say.

In short (which I know very well this isn't ) you did the only thing you could. You counseled them on the right thing to do. You confronted them when they began dividing the church on the issue. You gave them the opportunity to at the very least come up with a Scriptural basis for their position - which we all know is not possible since the Bible is very clear on what sexual relations before marriage is - and you asked them to stop sowing discord in the church. They refused all these, choosing to remain obstinate about their sin. At that point you, as the pastor, had to think about the rest of your congregation. God bless you for having the fortitude to do what had to be done. And I pray that the family will swallow their pride and admit their wrong to God. He can't bless willful sin. Even if they do get married, it won't be a truly happy union until/unless they get right with God.

This is a lovely testimony. My sister has a simular story about herself and husband, but she wished that it would have happen Gods way because things are ruff for them now. She tried to tell this couple about her situation to warn them, but it fell on deaf ears. I so happy that all has worked out for the both of you and look God is in the middle and thats great. Thanks for sharing

e

[e lansing]

I know of a young couple (friends of one of my daughters) who were living together and decided they wanted to be married in church. At that time they were not Christians. The Pastor (or Reverend - I think it was a C of E church, but, hey, who's bothered about ecclesiastical titles) insisted that if they wanted to be married in church they must first come for instruction. They did so and were gloriously converted - praise the Lord from the rooftops! From that time on, they stopped co-habiting and, although they continued to live in the same house (a multiple-occupancy lodging), they rented an additional room and thereafter slept in separate bedrooms. They are getting married this coming Saturday and my daughter will be a bridesmaid.

My point in recounting this is, I wonder whether the couple that you speak of are regenerate? Should they really be treated as "brethren" who have the Spirit of Truth living in them and therefore are living in deliberate disobedience to the Truth, or as unregenerate who do not have the Spirit of Truth in them and are in need of Him?

Maybe what they really need is to be truly converted so that Jesus in them by His Spirit convicts them, as was the case with the young couple I spoke of above; i.e. they are not in need of church discipline so much as the Gospel of grace and the conviction of sin through the Spirit of God within.

If it is a true saying: "by their works ye shall know them" (and I know it IS true) then does not the "work" of this young couple who choose to continue in their sin speak of unregenerate spirits?

Having said this, I am in no position to know the spiritual state of the young couple to whom you refer in the O.P. and it could well be that they are in disobedience in need of church disciploine for the sake of the whole body.

I pray that the Lord grants you wisdom and discernment.

Blessings in Jesus.

I agree with and am not sure about their salvation only God knows i tend to think they are. Some people have even thought they this was a plan that they had that did not work the way they planned, meaning that they might have been using the church, just to get married in one and not pay for it. I think this is not true, but who knows. Anyways thanks for sharing.

e

[e lansing]

name='e lansing' timestamp='1311477088' post='1699737'

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

I believe you did the right thing and the peace you have speaks alot as you said you had no regrets.

1 Corinthians 5:9, 11, 13 vs. 9) I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

vs. 11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one no not to eat. vs. 13) But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

You have to protect the people of God in your congregation so none will go astray after this deception that there is nothing wrong with living together out of wedlock most that are co-habitating are engaging in fornication being sex outside the sanctity of marriage. So I believe you did the right thing stamping out this type of deception that is causing division and strife..

James 4:4

[e lansing]

We had a youth leader who was "counseling" a young woman in my last church (about 400 members I would guess).

He was called to a meeting and admitted relations with her. He was asked to stop the relationship, and if they had any intention of marriage. He said he loved her, but not right now....

Separating them was not possible, even though he was asked to step down as youth leader. He was then asked to make a choice, stop the relationship or marry her. This went on for weeks while we prayed and met with both of them on numerous occasions.

The whole church was aware of the situation, and treated them as part of the congregation, (I am sure there was some judgment among some). In the end he chose to leave the church. She stayed on, and as far as I know still attends.

They are not together anymore, and found out that a high pressure counseling situation, vulnerable ego's, and a need for comfort had led them to where they were.

Had they continued, we would have had to take similar action that your church did.

I support the decision.

thanks fez

e

[MorningGlory]

[

Your are right you did not say "anything" but anythig is what it is when leadership in achurch chooses not to confront or correct sin in their church. My point still stands, which is as Christians we all have to live by scriptural standards. For those who love God, living by his word is our joy, for those who dont love God, His word means very little. The issue is not if we are sinners or not, yes we are all sinners, but paul and Jesus remove people from churches and temples, not because they were sinners but because they were sinning against God and His establishment for all to see with no regard for God and His establishment. And yes Paul could admitt he was a sinner but also know that as christians we must maintain standards and these standard are there for the protection of the of the flock as well as anyone who chooses to follow them. I am suprised, you do dont get my point or dont see the love in my choice to remove these people. I am not ok with sending the message that sin does not matter. This couple dont care what the bible says about sexual sin, and yet they think they are in good standing with God. Do you think that they would go to heaven under these condidions? I know Im a sinner and Im not perfect, but this does not mean that I can live the way i used to live, nor do i want to, neither does my sinful condition justify my choice to sin. Just because I intend to do the right thing later does not mean Im right at the present time. I think its better to be put out of a church then to be put out of heaven, this what Paul was getting in 1cor 5. I know I did the right thing, some agree and some disagree and this fine, I was just looking for feed back and I got it. Thanks for sharing

e

If you're comfortable with throwing these people out of your church then go forth and rejoice in your conviction. I just happen to believe you were wrong......since you asked for feedback.

[Shiloh62]

[

Your are right you did not say "anything" but anythig is what it is when leadership in achurch chooses not to confront or correct sin in their church. My point still stands, which is as Christians we all have to live by scriptural standards. For those who love God, living by his word is our joy, for those who dont love God, His word means very little. The issue is not if we are sinners or not, yes we are all sinners, but paul and Jesus remove people from churches and temples, not because they were sinners but because they were sinning against God and His establishment for all to see with no regard for God and His establishment. And yes Paul could admitt he was a sinner but also know that as christians we must maintain standards and these standard are there for the protection of the of the flock as well as anyone who chooses to follow them. I am suprised, you do dont get my point or dont see the love in my choice to remove these people. I am not ok with sending the message that sin does not matter. This couple dont care what the bible says about sexual sin, and yet they think they are in good standing with God. Do you think that they would go to heaven under these condidions? I know Im a sinner and Im not perfect, but this does not mean that I can live the way i used to live, nor do i want to, neither does my sinful condition justify my choice to sin. Just because I intend to do the right thing later does not mean Im right at the present time. I think its better to be put out of a church then to be put out of heaven, this what Paul was getting in 1cor 5. I know I did the right thing, some agree and some disagree and this fine, I was just looking for feed back and I got it. Thanks for sharing

e

If you're comfortable with throwing these people out of your church then go forth and rejoice in your conviction. I just happen to believe you were wrong......since you asked for feedback.

I have been thinking about this the last couple of days, and have to ask myself, which of us has not sinned? What if you were the one God chose to lead these 2 to Christ?

[ByFaithAlone]

Hello my extended friends, yea its been a while.

What Im looking for is just feed back, we get all types here so i want to run this by you all and see what say you.

A few months ago I had to remove a family from our church. A year ago had a young couple want to get married by me. I told them sure and sat with them to let them kow what needs to done in order for it to happen. At first they where good with what needed to happen. two weeks go by and I had not heard from them, i would see them and ask how is everything going, they said fine. Not to long after that we have our yearly fathers day outting I found out that they got an apartment together and had been living together for a few months now. I told them I could not marry them now. I still allowed them to come to church. The young lady has an older brother who has been coming to our church for years and was one of my leaders. I found out that he had been telling his sister that living together was not a sin, since they were getting married any way! I had no Idea he had this view. I talked with him and he just disagreed with not scripture to stand on. So I waited a while. During this time I find out that they are going to church members to discuss this and were dividing the church and people, new people would just walk up to and ask me about cohabitation and other questions about our fellowship, it was just odd. So I get an oppertunity to deal with both of these and asked them to stop speaking against me and our church, they refused, so i removed them from our church for promoting sin in their sisters life and causeing division in the church. I went to my pastors above me and they were divided on my choice. i have no regrets, but this was very hard to do. What say you?

Personally, I would disagree with your decision. To be sure, I do not approve of them living together or sowing discontent, I would not consider those offenses that deserve the exile from the body of Christ. I would like to ask a few questions to clarify the situation...

(a) Were the couple having sex?

(b) What were some of the questions people were actually asking you and are you sure the couple actually spread the discontent?

If the couple were not having sex then it is not adultery or sexually immoral. Living under the same roof happens all the time. Sex before marriage is what is condemned by the Bible, unless I'm mistaken...

If the questions only related to cohabitation in general and you have no proof that the couple actually talked to others about this issue then it could have been coincidence.

Also, you say that you went to the pastors after you kicked them out. Are you a pastor as a matter of interest? On what authority did you make the call to throw them out of the church you attend?

Lastly, the Bible tells us first to bring our own grievance before them, and then to bring a group of people before them and then to talk to the authorities/congregation about it. Is it just me or did you skip the last few steps?

[Shiloh62]

I agree, byfaith.