removing a church family from church

[e lansing]

Personally, I would disagree with your decision. To be sure, I do not approve of them living together or sowing discontent, I would not consider those offenses that deserve the exile from the body of Christ. I would like to ask a few questions to clarify the situation...

(a) Were the couple having sex?

(b) What were some of the questions people were actually asking you and are you sure the couple actually spread the discontent?

A. Yes because they admitted it to me

B. Yes Im sure because when I confronted them on what I thought they were doing they admitted to me

If the couple were not having sex then it is not adultery or sexually immoral. Living under the same roof happens all the time. Sex before marriage is what is condemned by the Bible, unless I'm mistaken...If the questions only related to cohabitation in general and you have no proof that the couple actually talked to others about this issue then it could have been coincidence.

sex before marriage is what they are doing and living together as a sexually active couple

Also, you say that you went to the pastors after you kicked them out. Are you a pastor as a matter of interest? On what authority did you make the call to throw them out of the church you attend?

yes im the pastor of this church. Scripture is my first authority and it grants me this action. 1 corinthians 5.

Lastly, the Bible tells us first to bring our own grievance before them, and then to bring a group of people before them and then to talk to the authorities/congregation about it. Is it just me or did you skip the last few steps?

I confronted first, then went to my pastor above me and the pastor above him at our mother church, then went to his elder, and got their direction first. This is when some disagreed but all told me to make the finial choice and that they would support me. So then me and my asisstent pastor went to try to councel them, they did not want to hear it. Their presence in the church was a mocking of God and his word, and therefore they needed to be removed.

Assuming that they were actually spreading discontent and having sex outside of marriage, I can see why you kicked them out but I still probably wouldn't have done it. As Christ said, it is not the healthy that need the doctor but the sick. Driving them away from the chance of confession and repentance might cause them to reject church and God entirely and that is something that I am sure neither of us want. A better course of action would be to ask them to refrain from sex until you marry them. Explain it to them from a Biblical standpoint. Also, ask them not to talk about the issue at church. Ask them to bring any concerns to a pastor, elder or deacon if they feel the need rather than just talking to anyone who will listen.

Again, that's just my opinion...

They were give weeks to make things right, they did not want to. Did not to refrain from sex because they believe that since they were getting married, it was a non-issue. They told me "we can speak to whom I want we still live in a free country". They went to assistent pastor and he brought them back to me. They went to our mother church, and were advise to follow my direction.

[MorningGlory]

If you're comfortable with throwing these people out of your church then go forth and rejoice in your conviction. I just happen to believe you were wrong......since you asked for feedback.

Thats fine, I have 1corinthians 5 to support my choice and you have?

e

I see that you have found a passage to justify your decision....again, if you are comfortable with giving up on these people then more power to you. Are you, perhaps, a JW?

[Believer1997]

They were offended by your actions on behalf of the church? How unusual.

Sinners probably don't belong in a church, only the repentent. But, I'm sure they will see the love of Christ one day and repent and probably join a church where they will grow in Grace and feel a part of the Family of Christ.

You had to do what you thought you had to do.... I'm sure your church is safer now that they are gone.

I'm not trying to stir up an argument sister, but I can't fully agree with that. I think Church is also for sinners who are seeking (if a sinner is in Church, he is seeking). Repentance comes after they found Christ and truly know they have sinned against God.

Think about it, if a person doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior and repents of a sin, to whom is he repenting to and where is that getting him?

Just a thought.

OZ.... I agree with you. I think the best place in the world for sinners is in a church - where they can be loved and guided. Apparently, there are leaders in some churches who believe otherwise. Blessings brother!

[Littlelambseativy]

They were offended by your actions on behalf of the church? How unusual.

Sinners probably don't belong in a church, only the repentent. But, I'm sure they will see the love of Christ one day and repent and probably join a church where they will grow in Grace and feel a part of the Family of Christ.

You had to do what you thought you had to do.... I'm sure your church is safer now that they are gone.

I'm not trying to stir up an argument sister, but I can't fully agree with that. I think Church is also for sinners who are seeking (if a sinner is in Church, he is seeking). Repentance comes after they found Christ and truly know they have sinned against God.

Think about it, if a person doesn't accept Jesus as lord and savior and repents of a sin, to whom is he repenting to and where is that getting him?

Just a thought.

OZ.... I agree with you. I think the best place in the world for sinners is in a church - where they can be loved and guided. Apparently, there are leaders in some churches who believe otherwise. Blessings brother!

[Smalcald]

Well the key issue here is that these are not new Christians or unbelievers who are seeking Christ. They claim to know Christ already. Excommunication is an accepted and important process that helps people, certainly it is strong medicine, but it also is not permanent. This couple simply had to repent and they would be welcomed back right now. But part of being a hospital is administering medicine not making people more sick by condoning their sin and thus encouraging the sickness.

There is also the issue Paul speaks of, how the Lord's name is blasphemed because of the outward sin of Christians in Corinth. In this case he was saying look, there is sin going on among you not even named among the non-believers, you need to put the person out for the sake of Christ and your Church. He also said the person could come back though. We find ourselves in that situation today where the sin practiced within the Church is sometimes worse than sin practiced by unbelievers who mock the name of Christ because of our actions.

As far as the scripture E lansing used it was not just one verse, it was a pretty detailed description of the situation he faced and it gave guidance on what he should do.

1 Corinthians 5

Immorality Defiles the Church

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[c] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[d]

[Littlelambseativy]

Well the key issue here is that these are not new Christians or unbelievers who are seeking Christ. They claim to know Christ already. Excommunication is an accepted and important process that helps people, certainly it is strong medicine, but it also is not permanent. This couple simply had to repent and they would be welcomed back right now. But part of being a hospital is administering medicine not making people more sick by condoning their sin and thus encouraging the sickness.

There is also the issue Paul speaks of, how the Lord's name is blasphemed because of the outward sin of Christians in Corinth. In this case he was saying look, there is sin going on among you not even named among the non-believers, you need to put the person out for the sake of Christ and your Church. He also said the person could come back though. We find ourselves in that situation today where the sin practiced within the Church is sometimes worse than sin practiced by unbelievers who mock the name of Christ because of our actions.

As far as the scripture E lansing used it was not just one verse, it was a pretty detailed description of the situation he faced and it gave guidance on what he should do.

1 Corinthians 5

Immorality Defiles the Church

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[c] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[d]

They cannot be excommunicated . They are sinners in search of a Saviour.

[Littlelambseativy]

Well the key issue here is that these are not new Christians or unbelievers who are seeking Christ. They claim to know Christ already. Excommunication is an accepted and important process that helps people, certainly it is strong medicine, but it also is not permanent. This couple simply had to repent and they would be welcomed back right now. But part of being a hospital is administering medicine not making people more sick by condoning their sin and thus encouraging the sickness.

There is also the issue Paul speaks of, how the Lord's name is blasphemed because of the outward sin of Christians in Corinth. In this case he was saying look, there is sin going on among you not even named among the non-believers, you need to put the person out for the sake of Christ and your Church. He also said the person could come back though. We find ourselves in that situation today where the sin practiced within the Church is sometimes worse than sin practiced by unbelievers who mock the name of Christ because of our actions.

As far as the scripture E lansing used it was not just one verse, it was a pretty detailed description of the situation he faced and it gave guidance on what he should do.

1 Corinthians 5

Immorality Defiles the Church

1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.[c] 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Immorality Must Be Judged

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[d]

They cannot be excommunicated . They are sinners in need of a Saviour.

[~candice~]

Are people forgetting just how divisive and damaging people like this can be to the church body? We don't need people talking behind others back and calling sin "good".

[Isaiah 6:8]

I will add to that is this. By definition the church is the Body of Christ. So an unbeliever by definition is not the Church. The function of the Church has historically been a place for believers to fellowship, grow and learn together. Not a place for the unsaved to become saved. In the Bible the place you see people saved and brought to Christ is not in the church, its outside. In the streets or person to person. I may be wrong and if so, please let me know, but I can not think of one example where a person was told to go to a church to become saved.

So yes a church is for the redeemed. Now of course these days many people go to church seeking God, and are looking for answers, and yes, as a church, we need to meet this need and introduce them to Christ, but this is a secondary function. The primary function which is missed more and more often is the feeding of his Sheep. The discipleship of his people. I have left churches that while being good godly people, the only messages they preached were salvation messages. I was starving to death on milk, I needed meat.

Now, back to the analogy of the Body of Christ. Non-believers are not part of the body. So lets set them aside for the moment and concentrate on people who know the Lord and believe.

E Lansing has made it very clear this is who he was dealing with. They were unrepentant in their sin, flaunting it, and stirring up division in the church. They were like cancer. You see all cancer is, is the body's normal cells gone wrong. They will spread and eventually kill you. You see members like this couple are just that. They have gone wrong. They are infecting others, and if left untreated it will kill the body.

E Lansing did try to speak with them first. He used the biblical standard of Matthew 18. In effect he attempted medicine first, Chemotherapy if you will. When that fails, it leaves you one choice. Cut out the infected tissue.

Now here is where that illustration breaks down. With actually cancer the tissue that is cut out is destroyed and has no hope of being put back into the body. In Christ as long as we breath there is always hope.

You see the scripture that backs this up is not simply one verse taken out of context, it is many full passages.

Lets remember that putting a person out of fellowship is not as serious as them being killed. God killed some in the early church for deceiving the disciples . They were believers but they had openly sinned against God and were unrepentant.

New King James Version (NKJV)

Acts 5

Lying to the Holy Spirit

1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

She said, “Yes, for so much.”

9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

That is a bit more drastic than what E. did, which was the Matthew 18 example.

Matthew 18:15-20

15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

18 “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

You see the question here is did he follow the two Great commandments.

Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Obviously he did this out a love of God. Now did he love his neighbor?

I think the answer is yes. You see his neighbor was not just the ones living in sin, but the others as well. He did not do this lightly, he did not do it easily, and the fact that he worries about if he did the right thing, to me at least shows he loves them very much to do the right thing. You see if he showed no remorse, but was bragging about it, that would show no love. I have seen more then one situation like this, and the person making the decision always feels bad about doing it. You see, if you don't love a person, you have no problem getting rid of them.

You see, the word discipleship has its root in the word discipline. If you are not disciplining people when out of line you are not making disciples.

So, in a nutshell.

Because E. Lansing followed the well established biblical president to deal with believers who were unrepentant in sin, and took the steps that Jesus outlined to remove them he did well. He protected his flock from some one who was spreading sin like a cancer, and hopefully they will one day realize there error and repent and return.

I have seen people, after humbling themselves in the site of the Lord return after being removed, and God was able to do great things with them.

For instance

On the drive back to Dallas the week following our wedding, the Lord spoke to Chad…

“Chad, I want you to go back to YWAM.”

“I don’t want to go back to YWAM…I am going to law-school.”

“Chad, I want you to go back to YWAM, you have unfinished business there.”

“I don’t want to go back…I left there in shame.”

Chad was feeling shame because in 1998 during the outreach portion of his DTS, he was asked to leave the team while they were in Thailand. The facts are, in 1998, Chad was not willing to give up the lifestyle he was accustomed to. He had plenty of money to do whatever he wanted to do and this false sense of entitlement led him to be a “disruption” on the team…and that is the nice way of saying it.

“I am a God of completion. I want you to go back to YWAM.”

Eventually the conversation turned…

“Do I have to go back to Denver? Can I go to another YWAM base?”

“You have to go back to Denver.’

“Why?”

“You have unfinished business there.”

Then God said to Chad, “Chad, if you humble yourself and go back to YWAM Denver, I will opened doors for you, you never imagined.”

Several hours after this conversation between Chad and his God, I received a phone call from Chad…

“I can’t believe I am about to say this, but I think we are going back to YWAM.”

…and so, here we were, in 2004, back at YWAM Denver, in the worship center watching a community of missionaries, not one of them on a salary, each having to raise there own support to be there, DANCE up the center isle with their offerings of change and dollar bills.

I was crying…as I watched this community, caring for ones of their own.

The “have-nots” giving to the “have-nots.”

And they raised $3500.00 to send me and Chad to China.

The Lord told Chad…”The world needs to see My faithfulness and you will tell the story of My Faithfullness through media.”

When Chad stood up to thank everyone for their sacrificial giving, he repeated what the Lord had told him…

“The world needs to see what God is doing in the lives of young people as they step out in faith and are met by the Faithfullness of God…”

…and here we are, in 2010, telling God’s love story to the Millennial Generation through media.

Enjoy the journey of “JesusFreaks.” It is a gift from God.

http://jesusfreaksmovie.com/blog/page/5/

Charles"(Chad) Cobb was my roommate in 1998. The Jesus Freaks Movie, he made with others has brought healing and people to Christ. He was put out of fellowship from YWAM. Sent home early but yet, God still brought him back.

So no putting people out of fellowship does not destroy, Satan does that, and people do that to themselves. Hopefully the disciplinary action will wake them up and bring them running back to the father.

I will be praying that this does happen.

Isaiah.

[Isaiah 6:8]

They cannot be excommunicated . They are sinners in search of a Saviour.

No they know the Savior, they refuse to obey his commands. Big difference.