Omniscience

[Guest shiloh357]

Ok, lets make it to the point. Did you write what is in Italics with my lettering (a, b etc.)?

Quote

a)God has never experienced what it is to be sinful, because God never sinned.

b)God has never experienced what it is to be created or to cease to exist, as God is eternal.

c)God has never experienced what it is to not be God, as He has always been God.

e)God has never experienced any personal need, as He has always been entirely self-sufficient and in need of nothing.

Of Course you did. your assertions are implying that you know God’s Mind and Abilities.

LOL What I posted there is basic theological knowledge of God revealed in Scripture. It is not a case thinking I presume to know God's minds. God has never sinneed, God is eternal, He has always been God and He is fully sufficient in Himself. All of that is revealed in Scripture and requires no special knowledge of God's mind on my or anyone else's part.

For some reason you are trying to find fault with my position, when in fact, I am upholding a fairly conservative and bibllical position about God.

a) Could God have a Characteristic that makes him know sin better than humans and makes Him have more experiential knowledge than us.

Of course. I am sure that God has had a pletora of experiences that we have never had and I am sure that there are things God knows about sin that we don't. So what?

Secondly Christ took up all the wotlds sin on the cross. The profound nature of just that can include the experiental knowledge of sin and taking it on punishment for the sin. You can't unequivocally say no.

But Jesus did not experience personal sinfuness. He did not become sinful. If Jesus was personally sinful, He would have been disqualified to be our sacrifice for sin AND He wold have ceased to be God.

Third the Holy Spirit is within us, He is not sinning but feels are temptation and sin action.

Where does the Bible say that the Holy Spirit feels our temptation and "sin action?"

"...but the Spirit intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words." Rom 8:26 Does that not sound like experienial knowledge?

Well, I am not exactly sure what kind of experiential knowledge you are trying to assign to God.

God has never sinned or experienced personal sinfulness. He has always been sinless and that is basic theology and a major tenet of the Christian faith. I am not exactly sure why you are trying to challenge that.

b -c) Christ for our sakes became human and was born in a human womb.. The Nician Council holds that Christ is fully human and fully God. We don't know how The Trinity's exactly share their union.

You are referring to the hypotatic union. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man (and that union is still in effect). Jesus experienced our humanity, but He did not experience any loss or diminishment of deity. Jesus, at no time, ceased to be God.

d

) But there must be some reason God made humans and angels. It may be expressed by something in God's nature that we don't fully understand.

I really don't see what you are trying refute with that remark.

from previos post:

Also you’re implying that you know God’s Mind and Every Purpose? (Oak)

No, that is what you are trying to assign to me. I have neither implied nor indicated any such thing. (shiloh)

Yes you did by seeing him from your human perspective.

Judging from what you have posted, I am not sure you that you have much of a grasp on my perspective, as I have not claimed anything about God that is not already revealed in Scripture. You are trying to assign values to me that I do not possess and are in futility trying to challenge me on the most basic tenets of Chrisitanity as if I am introducing strange doctrines, which only underscores your own lack of doctrinal and theological prowesss. You are trying to refute me on the basis of arguments I have not made.

Further, I believe God has many qualities that we don't know yet understand that includes experiential knowledge (Oak)

Again, I am not really clear on what it is you are tyring to find fault with. I have never claimed that we know all there is to know about God.

[godrulz]

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

What do you mean by prop vs exper?

Propositional Knowledge = Knowing that bicycles exist and can be ridden.

Experiential Knowledge = Knowing how to ride a bicycle and getting out and actually riding it.

Does omniscience extend to having had every possible experience that can be had?

It would appear that there is a distinction. Jesus did not drive a Ferrari, so God/Jesus does not have first hand experience in this. His omniscience would allow Him to build and fix one though. If Jesus incarnates in our century, He could drive a Ferrari and then have this experience added to the propositional knowledge. Since He has probably not done this, He can imagine what it is like through our experiences. He could create the perfect simulator in His mind and approach this. Omniscience does not entail having experiences (Jesus, the God-Man never had sex nor did God the Father, despite what Mormons say), but knowing all that is knowable (reality, facts, but not necessarily experiences like snorting cocaine). God is not discombobulated just because man does things (experience) that God cannot or does not do.

My wife and I named our children. God did not have this experience, but gave us the freedom. Once we named them, He knew of this reality (prop.).

[godrulz]

God is not in the future since it is not a place. The visions of Revelation are visions, not actualities that exist before they exist? The future cannot proceed the present or past logically. God can bring to pass much of the future unilaterally (such as the wrath of Revelation and the Second Coming itself), but that does not mean He brings to pass and knows every tiny detail (nor is it necessary for an omnipotent God to do so).

The building/parade analogy proves present knowledge in a spatial situation, but is not applicable to 'seeing' the future (bald assumption begging the question without evidence).

The future is fundamentally different than the past/present and Einstein should have known better.

[Openly Curious]

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name='shiloh357' timestamp='1311721352' post='1700925'

Tell me this...

The omniscience of God. Do you think it means that God has all possible knowledge (which would include all propositional and all experiential knowledge)? Or would it include only propositional knowledge?

Omniscience means "knowing everything" this being the case it would include both "propositional" and "experienential" knowledge lest it wouldn't fit into God "knowing everything."

Okay, so following that your take that omniscience would have to include all experiential knowledge......... Has God ever experienced what it is like to not be God?

I would have to say yes to your question that God has experienced what it is like to not be God. For I can see God's mercy upon the human race for while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly. The heart of God toward the lost is that they would make him Lord of their life accepting his sacrifice for the cleansing away of their sins. All the way back to the beginning in the garden when Eve was tricked into eating of the forbidden fruit and Adam rebelled against God when he ate the fruit that Eve brought to him being from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

I believe at this point God did experience what it was like knowing that both Adam and Eve disobeyed his law and as a result death came upon all of the human race as a result even though God made a covering for them being skin from an animal. Even though God is Creator of this world and always will, but he is still not the Lord of every person born into this earth meaning he is rejected. Throughout the bible you read how God experienced the rejection of his own people, rejected by whole nations and you can see how it affected the heart of God. One instance was before the flood came upon the earth and after the countless warnings from Noah who was a preacher of righteouness calling for repentance. But not one person on the face of the earth at that time repented and was saved. There was only eight souls that was saved from the flood and they were Noah his wife, his three sons and their wives.

On the earth at that time the sons of God being the angels came down from their first estates and took to themselves wives how ever many they chose and slept with these women. From these unions were born giants and God was not pleased with what the angels did nor the people on the earth and said that his spirit would not always strive with man and because of it he shortened the lifespan of man down to 120 years. God seen that the wickedness in the earth was great and that "every" thought of the imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil as you can read in....

Genesis 6:3c, 5, 6, 7c vs.3c) yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years..........vs.5) And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. vs.6) And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at heart vs.7c ) for it repenteth me that I have made them.

I believe that through the Lord's experience the people of the earth preceding the flood all rejected God except the eight souls. God repented and regreted he made man in his image he was sorry for his creation. The Lord grieved or mourned in his heart because of the destruction that was going to come upon the whole face of the earth because of their wickedness and the only ones who were going to survive this flood was Noah's family everything else would be totally destroyed.

My point - is that God did "experience" what it was like to not be God. For God wasn't found in the hearts of those on the earth because their thoughts and imaginations were continually on evil. I can see why the Lord repented and grieved at his creation. Even though God is the one true and living God and there is none other beside him and he is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and still yet multitudes reject him daily.

It grieved the Lord in his heart that he had to destroy his own creation because they served only the evil found in their hearts as the entire human race rejected God save Noah and his family. I think it must be very flustrating to God when he is the creator of all that is seen and all that is not seen and then not to be God in the hearts of men.

Satan falls into this same catagory as his goal is to dethrone God and take his place as god of the universe ruler of all nations etc., The angels who walked around the throne of God Satan also was among them as he was a created being himself. Satan got all puffed up and started seeking to dethrone God and to take the place of God. It was the sin of pride that caused Satan to get kicked out of heaven down to this earthTheis sin of pride got him kicked out of heaven down to this earth. Satan is still fighting against God and his people as he is the prince of the power of the air. Satan is seeking for all who will serve him and he seeks to destroying the faith of believers from serving God as he wants the praise and worship of the entire universe thinking one day he will be the god of this world.

Once again my point--through "experience" God was given no place or room within the heart of Satan but instead God was rejected by him. God went through all kinds of "experiences" that shows he was rejected in the hearts of mankind. God also was rejected within the angelic host as some of the angels rebelled against him and followed Satan. This being all true God is still God no matter who it is that rejects him and God does feel and "experience." the seperation of any of his creation from him and I speak from the beginning of creation from day one through day six.

( Sorry for all the underline )

[Guest shiloh357]

I would have to say yes to your question that God has experienced what it is like to not be God.

For that to happen, it would mean that at some point in history, God ceased being God.

Omniscience means "knowing everything" this being the case it would include both "propositional" and "experienential" knowledge lest it wouldn't fit into God "knowing everything."

Has God ever experienced being personally sinful? (Has God ever sinned?)

Has God ever experienced a need that was beyond His ability to meet? The answer is so. God is fully self-sufficent and has never been in need.

Has God ever experienced what it is like to have been created from nonexistence?

The argument in the rest of your post seems to be that God "experienced" what it is like not to be God because of the sinfulness and rebellion of mankind, but that doesn't cut it and has nothing to do with the question.

The truth is that there are experiences that God could not have without contradicting His Deity. God has never experienced being sinful. He has never experienced non existence. He has never experienced need or insufficiency. God has never been in a position where he had to depend on someone else to meet His needs.

But that does not mean that God is not omniscient.

[other one]

It would appear that there is a distinction. Jesus did not drive a Ferrari, so God/Jesus does not have first hand experience in this.

If the Holy Spirit gains experience by being within us, I can tell you that God has had the experience of driving a Ferrari.... unfortunately I could not say that he has had the experience of owning one.... at least not from this old Christian. And if he's not bound by time, He could have had the experience 3,000 years ago when chariots were in style.

[other one]

God is not in the future since it is not a place. The visions of Revelation are visions, not actualities that exist before they exist? The future cannot proceed the present or past logically. God can bring to pass much of the future unilaterally (such as the wrath of Revelation and the Second Coming itself), but that does not mean He brings to pass and knows every tiny detail (nor is it necessary for an omnipotent God to do so).

The building/parade analogy proves present knowledge in a spatial situation, but is not applicable to 'seeing' the future (bald assumption begging the question without evidence).

The future is fundamentally different than the past/present and Einstein should have known better.

So you personally believe...

[Guest shiloh357]

God is not in the future since it is not a place.

Morre accurately the future is not a physical location we can travel to. When I said that God knows the future because He is already there, that is an expression I use to communicate how God relates to the future. He views time differently than we do. He sees time as a whole. the future is just as real to Him as the present and the past. In addition, the Bible says in Hebrews 11:3 we know by faith that God framed the aion or ages.

God can bring to pass much of the future unilaterally (such as the wrath of Revelation and the Second Coming itself), but that does not mean He brings to pass and knows every tiny detail (nor is it necessary for an omnipotent God to do so).

There are those things in the future that God has already set to occur at the time He has designated they occur. There is a progression of events that must occur at a certain time and in a certain order for God's prophetic plan to come to fruition. But for those events to take place God must also direct the preliminary events leading up to decreed events. He must guide a successive line of actions and events in order to create the conditions necessary for His decreed events to occur. That necessitates God knowing more than just what is "knowable" by humanistic standards.

Your view of God has more in common with the how the ancient pagans viewed their gods than it does with how the Bible portrays a sovereign, eternal and omniscient God.

[godrulz]

Actually, the eternal now view is the pagan, Platonic view adopted by Greek-philosophy loving Augustine. The Hebraic view is endless time (Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:4), not timelessness.

Saying omniscience and omnipotence mean that God can do anything and know everything is flawed. God cannot do the undoable (make married bachelors), nor does He know the unknowable (where Alice in Wonderland is). God can do all that is doable and know all that is knowable. There are some things that are inherently undoable/unknowable (logical absurdities) even for an omniscient/omnipresent God.

Begging the question is not the way to prove a point. If one is not familiar with the depth of debate on these issues, one should not be dogmatic about the traditional view that is not truth (cf. impassibility is even being rethought by classical theologians who once defended the indefensible). Too much of the classic view is philosophically influenced (Platonic), not biblical.

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, the eternal now view is the pagan, Platonic view adopted by Greek-philosophy loving Augustine.

Open theism is more akin to the way the ancient pagans saw the limitations of their gods.

The Hebraic view is endless time (Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:4), not timelessness.

Time must have a beginning. God is an eternal being. There is no point at which God never was. Time exists apart from God. It is not part of Him. God existed before time. Before there was a universe, God was in existence. You are correct in saying that time is not spatial. But time can be measured and it measured by a linear succession of contiuous events from the past to the present and eventually into the future. It is a conintuous linear change of events from second to second. But God doesn't change. Before there was a universe, there was only God. Nothing changed, so there would be no way to have "time" under those conditions. So time MUST absolutely have begun at some point.

Secondly, the Scriptures you posted above do not say anything about "endless time." Rather they address the enternal nature of God who has neither beginning nor end. In each case, those Scriptures are describing God, not time.

Saying omniscience and omnipotence mean that God can do anything and know everything is flawed.

I have not claimed either one of those in this thread.

God cannot do the undoable (make married bachelors), nor does He know the unknowable (where Alice in Wonderland is).

Once again, you appear to be ascrbiing something I never said or even implied. I will say that God knows what is unknowable to man. God is not as limited as man is, as to what is "knowable."

If one is not familiar with the depth of debate on these issues, one should not be dogmatic about the traditional view that is not truth

A better idea would be for you to go and reread by my posts instead of jumping on here and assigning a bunch values to me that I have not ascrbed to.