Denominations?

[Dragoon]

Hi Chestertonrules,

Here's a further repost of something you seemed to have missed.

Only the apostles were given the authority to forgive sins. They were also given the authority to bind and loose, which is basically the same thing.

The Holy Spirit works in all of our lives but we don't all have the same authority.

You spend a lot of time giving the RC viewpoint (as you understand it), but you seem ignorant of what the Bible says.

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. (James 5:15) This passage clearly does not refer to the Apostles.

Your views show a void in understanding about God. If this reflects your church, then I'm afraid you are only making it more clear why people have rejected Roman Catholicism.

James refers to calling the elders. The elders, or priests, have been granted authority by the apostles.

The apostles were given the authority to forgive sins in the name of Jesus, and they were given the authority to establish the Church.

I've learned a lot since my times as a born again Christian who followed Christ to the best of my ability.

Question for you:

Would you follow Jesus into the Catholic Church if that is where he led you?

There was a priesthood before Jesus... which He removed, because there was no longer need for a mediator between man and God.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)

For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

(Hebrews 9:15)

HE is our High Priest, and each of us is now able to come before God clothed in Christ's righteousness.

...in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption (1 Cor 1:30)

You may want to note that the curtain which separated the Holy of Holies from the people was torn in two when Christ was crucified.

With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last. The curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. (Mark 15:37-38)

Do you think Christ removed the barrier between God and man... so that a 'priesthood' could come between them again?

There is a new priesthood. It is the body of Christ, and is made up of all who follow and believe in Him.

...you (God’s elect, strangers in the world) also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:5)

Would I follow Jesus into the Roman Catholic Church if that is where he led me? Of course.

Right now He is making it very clear that the Roman Catholic Church is far from Him.

Do you notice that people keep referring you to scripture... and your answer is 'the church says'. You seem to have become confused between Jesus' voice and the voice of men.

Might I ask you;

When is the last time you've read your Bible?

[Guest]

I can give you a couple of important items.

1) The power to bind and loose

2) The authority to forgive sins

Bondage

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. John 8:34

Or Jesus

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. John 8:36

Believe It

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

[nChrist]

The Church Which Is The Body Of Christ and the RCC are two entirely DIFFERENT entities. In other words, the RCC isn't it.

Romans 12:5 KJV So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Galatians 6:10 KJV As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Ephesians 5:18-21 KJV And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Colossians 3:15-17 KJV And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

[OneLight]

So, according to you, everything Jesus promised the Apostles do not apply to us.

I made no such statement. I said not everything Jesus promised to the Apostles applies to laypeople.

There's a huge difference.

Do you think that everything Jesus promised to the Apostles applies to you and me?

Answer my request and i will answer your question. Show me the list where Jesus only gave to the apostles and not to us and we can discuss them one by one.

I can give you a couple of important items.

1) The power to bind and loose

2) The authority to forgive sins

If you look back in my replies to you, you will see my answer. Man never had the power himself to do either. It has always been the Holy Spirit within them that does, and we have the same Spirit in us. Being who we are, some are not ready to accept such responsibilities, and He knows this, withholding such abilities from them. God, in His wisdom, knows where each of us are in Him. When we become mature in Him, He allows us to be more responsible in His will for our lives. We each are given our measure of faith, and in this faith we live.

Jesus gave the authority for these things to the apostles. Of course the power comes from him, but that is not the point.

The point is that this authority was not given to believers in general.

You and I don't have the power to forgive the sins of others or the power to bind and loose. The apostles were given this authority and they passed it on to their successors.

The point is you are wrong. When Christ agave us His Spirit, it is up to Him to decide what He will give us or not, not you or your church. If you choose to neglect what Christ has given you, that is your choice. For me, I will welcome everything He has for me to have.

What you don't have the right doing is to tell anyone what Christ is doing in them or through them. You hold your Popes up to so high of an esteem that you can no longer see the truth right in front of your eyes.

[Smalcald]

Is Truth based on doctrine alone or do faith action and the Holy Spirit matter? Once we are beyond the basics of the Christian faith, meaning acceptance of the Universal Creed's, I am not sure doctrine is that massively important. Doctrine will not save any individual in and of itself.

Truth is truth. Doctrine is merely a formal statement of truth. The Truth will set you free.

Faith, action, and the Holy Spirit are all part of doctrine.

What are the universal Creeds if not doctrine?

Sure.

But disagreement over doctrine is part of the Christian faith and has been a part for the past 2000 years.

If you consider this passage, basic things about diet about when to worship, St. Paul said don't worry about it:

Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.[c]

So St. Paul concludes that some doctrine should not be used to divide us. Here are two doctrines that Christians argue about even today, the Sabbath and Dietary issues, and yet St. Paul says don't judge people over this and certainly you had people doing different things on these doctrinal issues in this Christian group. I don't think the early Churches based on above had this sort of rigid idea about doctrine that would divide them spiritually over such matters.

[enoob57]

I am telling you what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught from 33AD until today.

Your view is modern and was unheard of for the first 1500 or so years of Christianity.

Forgive of noticing but I step in this yesterday as I was crossing the yard... I know this because

is smells the same disgusting, vile, and just plain wrong! The Histories of your departure from

Christ Jesus toward self deification are written clearly against you in lust: power, money, control,

pride, ... Here is the greatest where the Father and Son, right before the Cross, shared Their councils

with us Jn 17 that the rcc has mediatory rights in this point-> you weren't there then and at the end when

we stand individually before Him for acceptance or rejection you won't be there either... so why continue

the lies? Is it perhaps all that you have? Love Steven

[enoob57]

I am telling you what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught from 33AD until today.

Your view is modern and was unheard of for the first 1500 or so years of Christianity.

Forgive of noticing but I step in this yesterday as I was crossing the yard... I know this because

is smells the same disgusting, vile, and just plain wrong! The Histories of your departure from

Christ Jesus toward self deification are written clearly against you in lust: power, money, control,

pride, ... Here is the greatest where the Father and Son, right before the Cross, shared Their councils

with us Jn 17 that the rcc has mediatory rights in this point-> you weren't there then and at the end when

we stand individually before Him for acceptance or rejection you won't be there either... so why continue

the lies? Is it perhaps all that you have? Love Steven

Facts are facts. You don't like facts apparently, but prefer junior high insults.

You know as well as I do that I haven't posted any lies.

Oh yes I love being junior to The most High (see I can twist things just like you) so also your fact- calling it a fact- does not make it fact! Excellent of you to have noticed that!

We seem to have a difference of opinion toward the truth as you bear it! We'll let Christ Jesus the only mediator between The Father / His Father, not your group of fathers, Straighten it all out...

Oh Wait Christ already did in His Word-

1 Tim 2:5-7

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, 7 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle — I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying — a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

NKJV

Matt 23:6-12

6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, 7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' 8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

NKJV

Fact->here is their self deification and how they love to be called father while here on earth and not in heaven.... Love, Steven

[OneLight]

So, according to you, everything Jesus promised the Apostles do not apply to us.

I made no such statement. I said not everything Jesus promised to the Apostles applies to laypeople.

There's a huge difference.

Do you think that everything Jesus promised to the Apostles applies to you and me?

Answer my request and i will answer your question. Show me the list where Jesus only gave to the apostles and not to us and we can discuss them one by one.

I can give you a couple of important items.

1) The power to bind and loose

2) The authority to forgive sins

If you look back in my replies to you, you will see my answer. Man never had the power himself to do either. It has always been the Holy Spirit within them that does, and we have the same Spirit in us. Being who we are, some are not ready to accept such responsibilities, and He knows this, withholding such abilities from them. God, in His wisdom, knows where each of us are in Him. When we become mature in Him, He allows us to be more responsible in His will for our lives. We each are given our measure of faith, and in this faith we live.

Jesus gave the authority for these things to the apostles. Of course the power comes from him, but that is not the point.

The point is that this authority was not given to believers in general.

You and I don't have the power to forgive the sins of others or the power to bind and loose. The apostles were given this authority and they passed it on to their successors.

The point is you are wrong. When Christ agave us His Spirit, it is up to Him to decide what He will give us or not, not you or your church. If you choose to neglect what Christ has given you, that is your choice. For me, I will welcome everything He has for me to have.

What you don't have the right doing is to tell anyone what Christ is doing in them or through them. You hold your Popes up to so high of an esteem that you can no longer see the truth right in front of your eyes.

I am telling you what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught from 33AD until today.

Your view is modern and was unheard of for the first 1500 or so years of Christianity.

That is one of the exact reasons why the RCC is teaching falsely. I have to chuckle a bit. You make it sound that only because they have been teaching the same thing for that many years that they have to be right. They have been wrong for that many years, brother.

My view comes as He teaches me, not any one denomination. What He teaches has been heard for many years. It is not in your RCC teachings because it makes the Pope as human as everyone else and people will know the truth given to them from God and not the RCC. You are teaching your church doctrine, not what Christ taught. God is the same today as he was yesterday and as He will be tomorrow. He does not change.

[enoob57]

You claimed I posted lies. Please withdraw your comment or prove it.

I am telling you what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught from 33AD until today.

Your view is modern and was unheard of for the first 1500 or so years of Christianity.

The heresy of Transubstantiation 13th century-

Note our author's exposition. He censures those who understood our Lord's words after the letter, as if they were to eat the carnal body. He expounds the spiritual thing which gives life as to be understood by the text: "the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life." His word is the life-giving principle and therefore he called his flesh by the same name: and we are to "devour Him with the ear and to ruminate on Him with the understanding, and to digest Him by faith." The flesh profits nothing, the spirit imparts life. Now, was Tertullian ever censured for this exposition? On the contrary, this was the faith of the Catholic Church, from the beginning. Our Saxon forefathers taught the same, as appears from the Homily of Aelfric, , A.D. 980, and from the exposition of Ratramn, A.D. 840. The heresy of Transubstantiation was not dogmatic even among Latins, until the Thirteenth century

(from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 3, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

The heresy of purgatory and praying people out of 15th century :

2 SAMUEL 12:21-23: Should we pray for the dead?

There is nothing in inspired Scripture that supports the Roman Catholic doctrine of praying for the dead that they may be released from their sins. This conclusion is based on strong evidence from many passages. First, the only verse supporting prayers for the dead comes from the 2 nd century B.C. apocryphal book of 2 Maccabees (see comments on 1 Cor 3:13-15) which the Roman Catholic Church added to the Bible in A.D. 1546 in response to the Reformation that condemned such practices.

(from The Big Book of Bible Difficulties, © 1992 by Norman L. Geisler and Thomas A. Howe. All rights reserved.)

The heresy of ASSUMPTION OF MARY 1950:

Assumption of Mary. The Roman Catholic doctrine that Mary, at the completion of her earthly life, was taken up to heaven, body and soul. Attested to by the proliferation of New Testament apocrypha surviving in Greek, Latin, Syriac, Coptic, Ethiopic and Arabic sources from the late fourth century onwards, the belief also found expression in feasts celebrating the death of Mary, perhaps as early as the fourth century at Antioch. The precise object of such feasts, however, was often unclear (the mere death of Mary? her purely spiritual assumption into heaven? her anticipated resurrection and glorification, body and soul?).

Patristic discussion from the sixth century on, continued and refined by later theological reflection, was based chiefly on deductive theology concerning the special union of Mary with her Son in his redemptive incarnation. This prepared the way for the apostolic constitution. Munificentissimus Deus (Nov. 1, 1950), in which Pius XII defined as dogma that "Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."

BIBLIOGRAPHY. V. Bennet and R. Bench, The Assumption of Our Lady and Catholic Theology (1950).

(from Dictionary of Christianity in America, edited by Daniel G. Reid, Robert D. Linder, Bruce L. Shelley and Harry S. Stout. © 1990 by InterVarsity Christian Fellowship/USA; published by InterVarsity Press. All rights reserved.)

In baseball three strikes and your out... the doctrine of the rcc is so filled with error due to the

The apocrypha and the Church Middle ages:

At a very early period orthodox writers and, presumably, ecclesiastical authorities found it necessary to distinguish between the genuine inspired books and a multitude of spurious rivals — a fact which is a very important element in the formation of the Christian canon. Thus as early as about A.D. 170, the author of the descriptive Latin catalogue known as the "Muratorian Fragment" mentioned certain works as fictitious or contested. At the same time St. Irenæus called attention to the great mass of heretical pseudographic writings (inenarrabilis multitudo apocryphorum et perperam scripturarum, Adv., Hær., I, xx). Undoubtedly it was the large use heretical circles, especially the Gnostic sects, made of this insinuating literature which first called forth the animadversions of the official guardians of doctrinal purity. Even in the East, already the home of pseudographic literature, Origen (d. 254) exhibits caution regarding the books outside the canon (Comment. in Matth., serm. 28). St. Athanasius in 387 found it necessary to warn his flock by a pastoral epistle against Jewish and heretical apocrypha (P.G., XXVI, 1438). Another Greek Father, Epiphanius (312-403) in "Hæreses", 26, could complain that copies of Gnostic apocrypha were current in thousands. Yet it must be confessed that the early Fathers, and the Church, during the first three centuries, were more indulgent towards Jewish pseudographs circulating under venerable Old Testament names. The Book of Henoch and the Assumption of Moses had been cited by the canonical Epistle of Jude. Many Fathers admitted the inspiration of Fourth Esdras. Not to mention the Shepherd of Hermas, the Acts of St. Paul (at least in the Thecla portion) and the Apocalypse of St. Peter were highly revered at this and later periods. Yet, withal, no apocryphal work found official recognition in the Western Church. In 447 Pope Leo the Great wrote pointedly against the pseudo-apostolic writings, "which contained the germ of so many errors . . . they should not only be forbidden but completely suppressed and burned" (Epist. xv, 15). The so-called Decretum de recipiendis et non recipiendis libris" is attributed to Pope Gelasius (495), but in reality is a compilation dating from the beginning of the sixth century, and containing collections made earlier than Gelasius. It is an official document, the first of the kind we possess, and contained a list of 39 works besides those ascribed to Leucius, "disciple of the devil", all of which it condemns as apocryphal. From this catalogue it is evident that in the Latin Church by this time, apocrypha in general, including those of Catholic origin, had fallen under the ecclesiastical ban, always, however, with a preoccupation against the danger of heterodoxy. The Synod of Braga, in Spain, held in the year 563, anathematizes any one "who reads, approves, or defends the injurious fictions set in circulation by heretics". Although in the Middle Ages these condemnations were forgotten and many of the pseudographic writings enjoyed a high degree of favour among both clerics and the laity, still we find superior minds, such as Alcuin, St. Bernard, St. Thomas Aquinas, pointing out their want of authority. An echo of the ancient condemnations occurs in the work De Festis B.M.V. of Benedict XIV, declaring certain popular apocrypha to be impure sources of tradition. (See CANON OF SACRED SCRIPTURE.)

http://www.newadvent...then/01601a.htm

Love Steven

[OneLight]

So, according to you, everything Jesus promised the Apostles do not apply to us.

I made no such statement. I said not everything Jesus promised to the Apostles applies to laypeople.

There's a huge difference.

Do you think that everything Jesus promised to the Apostles applies to you and me?

Answer my request and i will answer your question. Show me the list where Jesus only gave to the apostles and not to us and we can discuss them one by one.

I can give you a couple of important items.

1) The power to bind and loose

2) The authority to forgive sins

If you look back in my replies to you, you will see my answer. Man never had the power himself to do either. It has always been the Holy Spirit within them that does, and we have the same Spirit in us. Being who we are, some are not ready to accept such responsibilities, and He knows this, withholding such abilities from them. God, in His wisdom, knows where each of us are in Him. When we become mature in Him, He allows us to be more responsible in His will for our lives. We each are given our measure of faith, and in this faith we live.

Jesus gave the authority for these things to the apostles. Of course the power comes from him, but that is not the point.

The point is that this authority was not given to believers in general.

You and I don't have the power to forgive the sins of others or the power to bind and loose. The apostles were given this authority and they passed it on to their successors.

The point is you are wrong. When Christ agave us His Spirit, it is up to Him to decide what He will give us or not, not you or your church. If you choose to neglect what Christ has given you, that is your choice. For me, I will welcome everything He has for me to have.

What you don't have the right doing is to tell anyone what Christ is doing in them or through them. You hold your Popes up to so high of an esteem that you can no longer see the truth right in front of your eyes.

I am telling you what the Catholic Church teaches and has always taught from 33AD until today.

Your view is modern and was unheard of for the first 1500 or so years of Christianity.

That is one of the exact reasons why the RCC is teaching falsely. I have to chuckle a bit. You make it sound that only because they have been teaching the same thing for that many years that they have to be right. They have been wrong for that many years, brother.

My view comes as He teaches me, not any one denomination. What He teaches has been heard for many years. It is not in your RCC teachings because it makes the Pope as human as everyone else and people will know the truth given to them from God and not the RCC. You are teaching your church doctrine, not what Christ taught. God is the same today as he was yesterday and as He will be tomorrow. He does not change.

Please find a Christian who believed as you did in the first 1000 years of Christianity.

If you can, then we'll know that your view is not modern.

Good luck!

That is one of the most ridiculous requests I have ever heard. I suppose that every single christian is still alive today so I can mosey up to them and ask.

Scripture itself speaks loud enough. Unplug your ears and open your eyes to what it says and stop being spoon fed from the RCC.