Israel & the "rapture"

[Massorite]

I should have been more clear in my question. Just not sure how to phrase it.

In Romans 11:25 we are told that blindness in part has come upon Israel til the fulness of the Gentiles come in & after that it says all Israel shall be saved. This is still a future event, so where does this fit in your understanding of the 'catching up'? Where in the timeline of when you think the 'catching up' happens do you think Israel is saved?

At this point, I don't see how we could be caught up without them & am asking these questions to find out how others see it. I know there are lots of threads on the "rapture", but none seem to address the significance of where Israel fits into it.

All Israel will be saved at the appearing of Jesus.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.”

Zechariah 12:7 “The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Joshua-777, Thank you for both your posts. We are pretty much on the same page, but I am still having trouble with timing: as "in the twinkling of an eye". That's how fast the catching up is supposed to be, so I am wondering how fast the salvation of Israel will be. Does that make sense? Maybe I need a better understanding of what 'in the twinkling of an eye' means?

I think "In a twinking of an eye" is when Jesus comes, we are caught up with Him, it will literally be the second He comes. When He comes all Israel will be saved because He is coming to defend Israel against the nations, when Israel sees their Messiah, "they will look on Me whom they pierced." They will be filled with the Holy Spirit, "Spirit of grace and supplication," and thus be saved. So, When He comes, believers will be caught up with Him, and Israel will become believers.

It is also possible that Israel will see revival and then He comes, but scripture points me to Israel being saved "When He comes."

K, thanks, will "chew" on that for a while.

It seems that everybody is over looking the fact that Jesus will come back twice within a seven year period. When Jesus appears in the clouds (Goriy of God) the saints will be raptured up to meet him "in the clouds" scripture says nothing at all about Jesus retuning to the earth at that time. Also at that point any Isrealite who is saved will also be raptured up to meet Jesus in the clouds. The rest of Isreal will remain here on earth to endure what ever God sees fit for them to endure. The next time Jesus appears it will be at the end of the battle of Armageddon as God sees fit to end the battle and then at that point Jesus will set his feet on the earth. Even then there is no scripture that tells us that Jesus will stay on the earth at that point. But Jesus will be here on the earth to rule for a 1000 years. What a lot of folk don't realize is that there will be a period of time between the the battle of Armageddon and when Jesus will return to the earth to rule for a thousand years.

[OldShep]

Hi all! Just a question at this point---how & where does Israel fit into your understanding of the catching up (commonly called rapture)?

Short answer to your first question.

Those people that accepted Christ as their savior while He was walking the earth, will all be raised from the dead and rejoined with their souls. Those Israelites who died before Christ walked the earth will remain asleep in the earth until the second coming of the Lord Jesus, during the second coming known as the Great Tribulation.

Dan 12:2 NIV Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

For the phrase “in Christ” refers exclusively to Church-Age saints. The bodies of the dead in Christ will rise before the living Christians are caught up to meet the Lord in the air

1Th 4:17 NIV After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Long answer…….....

I think that there are many people in this world who act like a bunch of children in the family car, all screaming out "are we there yet". While others are running around waving their arms screaming {the sky is falling}. As servants of Christ we should all be performing our earthly duties as best we can while watching for His return. . This is the great hope of the church, to see the Lord and be united with Him forever. It is that which every believer in this Age should anticipate. It is a blessed hope (Tit_2:13) with respect to the dead in Christ as well as for the living!

It is my understanding that all believers in Christ, who are asleep will be raised from their resting place upon the return of Christ in the clouds. This means all those who have passed on, no matter what country they lived in, Israel, Norway, England, or the battle fields of France and Germany, Vietnam, Japan anywhere on Earth. The speed of the resurrection of these bodies and the joining of their souls will be faster then one could have measured in Paul's time. Then in an instant those who are still alive in Christ will also be caught up with Jesus in the clouds.

One should also rest in the fact that those who are asleep in Christ, those who already passed on unto death of the body, their souls live on in the presence of the Lord Jesus already. Paul wrote that a Christian who is absent from his body is present with the Lord (2Co_5:8; Php_1:23; 1Th_5:10). It is rather the “sleep” of the body in the earth until it is resurrected, changed into a glorious body, and reunited with the soul (1Co_15:35-57; 2Co_5:1-9).

The resurrected or translated bodies of all Christians will be united with Christ and with each other at the Rapture. From that time on and forever thereafter they will be with the Lord. The Lord will take living believers to the place He is presently preparing for them.

Joh 14:2-3 NIV In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. (3) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

How will God raise the bodies of people who were buried hundreds of years ago? What about the bodies of those Christians who were burned to death and those whose ashes were thrown to the wind, and Christians who perished at sea? The resurrection of the dead poses a great problem to the faith of many. Perhaps that is why Paul stressed that this revelation came from Jesus Christ Himself and that it is as certain of future fulfillment as Jesus’ resurrection is a fact of past history. The God who created the universe out of nothing with a word is fully able to reassemble the decayed bodies of all His saints in a moment of time.

~~ taken from The Bible Knowledge Commentary..

Only a moment will separate the resurrection of the dead and the translation of the living (1Co_15:51-52). This is the Rapture of the church, when Christians are caught up to meet Christ in the clouds (cf. Act_1:9). The events described here and in the parallel passage, 1Co_15:1-58, differ considerably from those that will accompany Christ’s return to the earth to set up His earthly kingdom (Rev_19:11-21). This difference substantiates the distinction between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

The prophecy of the Rapture is as sure to be fulfilled as the prophecies of Christ’s death and resurrection.

Please forgive me if I offened anyone, just longing for..............peace.

Dennis

[Joshua-777]

It seems that everybody is over looking the fact that Jesus will come back twice within a seven year period.

Jesus coming back twice isn't fact though, it's interpretation. The more I study the Lords coming, the more I can't hold to a pre-trib view. Jesus is coming back once, when He does, the church is caught up with Him and the world is going to enter into judgement. We are exempt from Gods wrath, but not so sure if we are exempt from persicution.

I honestly wouldn't mind if what your saying is true. I've studied wanting to hold onto this view but had to go where scripture lead me. Can you provide scripture for this?

[Openly Curious]

All Jews and Gentiles who haved accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air along with all the believing Jews and Gentiles that preceded the believers in death will be resurrected from the grave and be caught up with those who are alive and remain on this earth.

The nation of Israel will have it's place in the end-times, but being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is only specifically referring to the believing Jews and believing Gentiles including all the believers who preceded the believers in death will also be caught up to ever be with the Lord.

Ephesians 2:11-19 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12)That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13)But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were afar off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14)For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. (15)Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain(Jews and Gentiles) one new man, so maing peace;

(16)And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross having slain the enmity thereby: (17)And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, (Gentiles) and to them that were nigh (Jews). (18)For through him we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (the household of God is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles a like)

[goldust59]

I should have been more clear in my question. Just not sure how to phrase it.

In Romans 11:25 we are told that blindness in part has come upon Israel til the fulness of the Gentiles come in & after that it says all Israel shall be saved. This is still a future event, so where does this fit in your understanding of the 'catching up'? Where in the timeline of when you think the 'catching up' happens do you think Israel is saved?

At this point, I don't see how we could be caught up without them & am asking these questions to find out how others see it. I know there are lots of threads on the "rapture", but none seem to address the significance of where Israel fits into it.

All Israel will be saved at the appearing of Jesus.

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,

And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.”

Zechariah 12:7 “The LORD will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Joshua-777, Thank you for both your posts. We are pretty much on the same page, but I am still having trouble with timing: as "in the twinkling of an eye". That's how fast the catching up is supposed to be, so I am wondering how fast the salvation of Israel will be. Does that make sense? Maybe I need a better understanding of what 'in the twinkling of an eye' means?

I think "In a twinking of an eye" is when Jesus comes, we are caught up with Him, it will literally be the second He comes. When He comes all Israel will be saved because He is coming to defend Israel against the nations, when Israel sees their Messiah, "they will look on Me whom they pierced." They will be filled with the Holy Spirit, "Spirit of grace and supplication," and thus be saved. So, When He comes, believers will be caught up with Him, and Israel will become believers.

It is also possible that Israel will see revival and then He comes, but scripture points me to Israel being saved "When He comes."

K, thanks, will "chew" on that for a while.

It seems that everybody is over looking the fact that Jesus will come back twice within a seven year period. When Jesus appears in the clouds (Goriy of God) the saints will be raptured up to meet him "in the clouds" scripture says nothing at all about Jesus retuning to the earth at that time. Also at that point any Isrealite who is saved will also be raptured up to meet Jesus in the clouds. The rest of Isreal will remain here on earth to endure what ever God sees fit for them to endure. The next time Jesus appears it will be at the end of the battle of Armageddon as God sees fit to end the battle and then at that point Jesus will set his feet on the earth. Even then there is no scripture that tells us that Jesus will stay on the earth at that point. But Jesus will be here on the earth to rule for a 1000 years. What a lot of folk don't realize is that there will be a period of time between the the battle of Armageddon and when Jesus will return to the earth to rule for a thousand years.

It is not that I am overlooking that view, I just no longer see it that way.

[goldust59]

All Jews and Gentiles who haved accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air along with all the believing Jews and Gentiles that preceded the believers in death will be resurrected from the grave and be caught up with those who are alive and remain on this earth.

The nation of Israel will have it's place in the end-times, but being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is only specifically referring to the believing Jews and believing Gentiles including all the believers who preceded the believers in death will also be caught up to ever be with the Lord.

Ephesians 2:11-19 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12)That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13)But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were afar off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14)For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. (15)Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain(Jews and Gentiles) one new man, so maing peace;

(16)And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross having slain the enmity thereby: (17)And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, (Gentiles) and to them that were nigh (Jews). (18)For through him we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (the household of God is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles a like)

I understand what you are saying. What I was trying to gather from the question was opinion on whether or not the catching up could happen before Israel is brought back in. In my opinion, I don't think so & the scripture you used is one of the reasons. Jesus has broken down the partition that was between us to make us "one" in Him. So I think that the spiritual revival of Israel will have to happen first so that they are joined to the Body of Christ.

These are the scriptures that got me studying this:

Romans 11:12~ Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Romans 11:15~For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Am still studying on this & the way I 'see' it is subject to changes.

[Joshua-777]

All Jews and Gentiles who haved accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air along with all the believing Jews and Gentiles that preceded the believers in death will be resurrected from the grave and be caught up with those who are alive and remain on this earth.

The nation of Israel will have it's place in the end-times, but being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is only specifically referring to the believing Jews and believing Gentiles including all the believers who preceded the believers in death will also be caught up to ever be with the Lord.

Ephesians 2:11-19 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12)That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13)But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were afar off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14)For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. (15)Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain(Jews and Gentiles) one new man, so maing peace;

(16)And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross having slain the enmity thereby: (17)And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, (Gentiles) and to them that were nigh (Jews). (18)For through him we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (the household of God is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles a like)

I understand what you are saying. What I was trying to gather from the question was opinion on whether or not the catching up could happen before Israel is brought back in. In my opinion, I don't think so & the scripture you used is one of the reasons. Jesus has broken down the partition that was between us to make us "one" in Him. So I think that the spiritual revival of Israel will have to happen first so that they are joined to the Body of Christ.

These are the scriptures that got me studying this:

Romans 11:12~ Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Romans 11:15~For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Am still studying on this & the way I 'see' it is subject to changes.

That could be a revival in Israel that is going to spread through the world, or it could be refering to the thousand year reign with Christ in restored Israel.

We do know that the bride prepares herself before His coming, I think it's going to be a world wide revival that will bring in the fulness of the gentiles.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”

As far as the milenial,

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Live from the dead could mean mass revival for the nations, but it could also mean when Jesus reigns in Jerusalem for 1000 years those who are in Christ will be with Him.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

[goldust59]

All Jews and Gentiles who haved accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air along with all the believing Jews and Gentiles that preceded the believers in death will be resurrected from the grave and be caught up with those who are alive and remain on this earth.

The nation of Israel will have it's place in the end-times, but being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is only specifically referring to the believing Jews and believing Gentiles including all the believers who preceded the believers in death will also be caught up to ever be with the Lord.

Ephesians 2:11-19 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12)That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13)But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were afar off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14)For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us. (15)Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain(Jews and Gentiles) one new man, so maing peace;

(16)And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross having slain the enmity thereby: (17)And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, (Gentiles) and to them that were nigh (Jews). (18)For through him we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (the household of God is made up of believing Jews and Gentiles a like)

I understand what you are saying. What I was trying to gather from the question was opinion on whether or not the catching up could happen before Israel is brought back in. In my opinion, I don't think so & the scripture you used is one of the reasons. Jesus has broken down the partition that was between us to make us "one" in Him. So I think that the spiritual revival of Israel will have to happen first so that they are joined to the Body of Christ.

These are the scriptures that got me studying this:

Romans 11:12~ Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Romans 11:15~For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Am still studying on this & the way I 'see' it is subject to changes.

That could be a revival in Israel that is going to spread through the world, or it could be refering to the thousand year reign with Christ in restored Israel.

We do know that the bride prepares herself before His coming, I think it's going to be a world wide revival that will bring in the fulness of the gentiles.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.”

As far as the milenial,

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Live from the dead could mean mass revival for the nations, but it could also mean when Jesus reigns in Jerusalem for 1000 years those who are in Christ will be with Him.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

I am considering the possibility that Romans 11:15 may have connection to 1 Thess 4:16 & the dead in Christ rising first. As in, when Israel is received again this brings about or brings things in line for the rising of the dead.

[OldShep]

I am considering the possibility that Romans 11:15 may have connection to 1 Thess 4:16 & the dead in Christ rising first. As in, when Israel is received again this brings about or brings things in line for the rising of the dead.

Well this is what the Dallas Seminary Teaches.

Romans 11:11-12

2. In Gentiles (Rom_11:11-24 )

Paul asked still another question he anticipated from his readers. Did they stumble (cf. Rom_9:32 ) so as to fall beyond recovery? Literally, the Greek says simply, "Did they stumble so that they fell?" But the tense of the verb "fell" and its contrast with the verb translated "stumble" imply the idea of falling beyond recovery. Once again the question in Greek was worded to elicit a negative answer, and for the 10th and last time in Romans, Paul responded, Not at all! (mē genoito ; cf. Rom_3:4 , Rom_3:6 , Rom_3:31 ; Rom_6:2 , Rom_6:15 ; Rom_7:7 , Rom_7:13 ; Rom_9:14 ; Rom_11:1 ) "They" refers to "the others" (Rom_11:7 ), the majority of the people of Israel, excluding the "remnant chosen by grace" (Rom_11:5 ).

Israel experienced not a permanent fall, but a stumbling. It served at least two divine purposes: (a) to offer salvation… to the Gentiles, and (b) to make Israel envious (lit., "to the provoking of them to jealousy"; cf. Deu_32:21 ). Twice already in his ministry Paul had turned away from unbelieving Jews to the Gentiles (Act_13:46 ; Act_18:6 ), and he would do so at least once more in Rome (Act_28:25-28 ). In so doing he was fulfilling these purposes of God. But Paul was convinced that Israel’s transgression (paraptōma , "false step," which seems to fit with "stumble"; cf. paraptōma , trans. "trespass" in Rom_5:17-18 , Rom_5:20 ) was temporary. So he looked beyond its immediate results (riches for the world and… riches for the Gentiles) to the possibility of its removal (how much greater riches will their fullness bring!). "World" here means mankind, not the physical world (cf. "world" in Rom_11:15 ). Certainly the world has been enriched spiritually because of so many Gentiles coming to Christ (cf. comments on "reconciliation" in Rom_11:15 ). But even greater riches will be enjoyed by Gentiles after the conversion of Israel at the Lord’s return (cf. Rom_11:26 ). Israel’s "fullness" suggests a large-scale conversion (cf. "full number [lit., ‘fullness’] of the Gentiles," Rom_11:25 ).

Romans 11:13-15

Paul then singled out a part of the Christian community at Rome, saying, I am talking to you Gentiles. Though writing, Paul used terms referring to oral communication, a fact with implications for the inspiration of the Scriptures. Paul then affirmed his special position as the apostle to the Gentiles (cf. Act_9:15 ; Gal_1:16 ; Gal_2:7-8 ; Eph_3:8 ), and declared, I make much of (lit., "I glorify" or "I magnify") my ministry. Part of Paul’s purpose for magnifying his service to the Gentiles was to provoke to jealousy his fellow Jews (Rom_11:11 ), resulting in the salvation of some of them (cf. Rom_9:1-4 ; Rom_10:1 ). Any such Jews won to Christ would be part of the "remnant chosen by grace." Then Paul reminded his Gentiles readers that Israel’s rejection meant the reconciliation of the world in the purpose of God. Because Israel rejected Christ, the gospel was taken to these Gentiles. In Scripture reconciliation is a work of God in the death of Christ which does not actually restore an individual to fellowship with God but provides the basis for him to be restored to fellowship (cf. 2Co_5:18-20 ). This statement serves to explain the meaning of the phrases "riches for the world" and "riches for the Gentiles" in Rom_11:12 . (When a person comes to Christ by faith God’s work of reconciliation is appropriated to him and he then has fellowship with God and the spiritual enmity is removed.)

Because Paul was convinced that Israel’s stumbling is temporary, he asked, What will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (lit., "out from dead ones") This question explains the clause, "How much greater riches will their fullness bring" (Rom_11:12 ). Israel’s "acceptance" of Christ is related to "the first resurrection" (Rev_20:4-6 ), the resurrection of life (Joh_5:29 1 , KJV). The first resurrection includes dead saints at the Rapture (1Th_4:13-18 ), martyred Great Tribulation saints raised at Christ’s return (Rev_20:4 , Rev_20:5 ), and believing Old Testament saints (Dan_12:1-2 ). The second resurrection will include all the wicked dead to be judged at the great white throne judgment (Rev_20:5 , Rev_20:12-13 ). The teaching that there will be one general resurrection of all humanity at one time fails to take these distinctions into account.

Faith in Jesus, is what I have, man may spend hours fighting about timing, with words like Pre-Mid-Post Tribulation which only serves to split the body of Christ and causes many to fight over something that we really should not be worring about. {IMHO}

The bottom line is: Israel shall live, she was the first chosen and she will rise to become a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God.

Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

Rom 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.

Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Rom 9:33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Jas 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

Dennis

[goldust59]

I am considering the possibility that Romans 11:15 may have connection to 1 Thess 4:16 & the dead in Christ rising first. As in, when Israel is received again this brings about or brings things in line for the rising of the dead.

Well this is what the Dallas Seminary Teaches.

Romans 11:11-12

2. In Gentiles (Rom_11:11-24 )

Paul asked still another question he anticipated from his readers. Did they stumble (cf. Rom_9:32 ) so as to fall beyond recovery? Literally, the Greek says simply, "Did they stumble so that they fell?" But the tense of the verb "fell" and its contrast with the verb translated "stumble" imply the idea of falling beyond recovery. Once again the question in Greek was worded to elicit a negative answer, and for the 10th and last time in Romans, Paul responded, Not at all! (mē genoito ; cf. Rom_3:4 , Rom_3:6 , Rom_3:31 ; Rom_6:2 , Rom_6:15 ; Rom_7:7 , Rom_7:13 ; Rom_9:14 ; Rom_11:1 ) "They" refers to "the others" (Rom_11:7 ), the majority of the people of Israel, excluding the "remnant chosen by grace" (Rom_11:5 ).

Israel experienced not a permanent fall, but a stumbling. It served at least two divine purposes: (a) to offer salvation… to the Gentiles, and (b) to make Israel envious (lit., "to the provoking of them to jealousy"; cf. Deu_32:21 ). Twice already in his ministry Paul had turned away from unbelieving Jews to the Gentiles (Act_13:46 ; Act_18:6 ), and he would do so at least once more in Rome (Act_28:25-28 ). In so doing he was fulfilling these purposes of God. But Paul was convinced that Israel’s transgression (paraptōma , "false step," which seems to fit with "stumble"; cf. paraptōma , trans. "trespass" in Rom_5:17-18 , Rom_5:20 ) was temporary. So he looked beyond its immediate results (riches for the world and… riches for the Gentiles) to the possibility of its removal (how much greater riches will their fullness bring!). "World" here means mankind, not the physical world (cf. "world" in Rom_11:15 ). Certainly the world has been enriched spiritually because of so many Gentiles coming to Christ (cf. comments on "reconciliation" in Rom_11:15 ). But even greater riches will be enjoyed by Gentiles after the conversion of Israel at the Lord’s return (cf. Rom_11:26 ). Israel’s "fullness" suggests a large-scale conversion (cf. "full number [lit., ‘fullness’] of the Gentiles," Rom_11:25 ).

Romans 11:13-15

Paul then singled out a part of the Christian community at Rome, saying, I am talking to you Gentiles. Though writing, Paul used terms referring to oral communication, a fact with implications for the inspiration of the Scriptures. Paul then affirmed his special position as the apostle to the Gentiles (cf. Act_9:15 ; Gal_1:16 ; Gal_2:7-8 ; Eph_3:8 ), and declared, I make much of (lit., "I glorify" or "I magnify") my ministry. Part of Paul’s purpose for magnifying his service to the Gentiles was to provoke to jealousy his fellow Jews (Rom_11:11 ), resulting in the salvation of some of them (cf. Rom_9:1-4 ; Rom_10:1 ). Any such Jews won to Christ would be part of the "remnant chosen by grace." Then Paul reminded his Gentiles readers that Israel’s rejection meant the reconciliation of the world in the purpose of God. Because Israel rejected Christ, the gospel was taken to these Gentiles. In Scripture reconciliation is a work of God in the death of Christ which does not actually restore an individual to fellowship with God but provides the basis for him to be restored to fellowship (cf. 2Co_5:18-20 ). This statement serves to explain the meaning of the phrases "riches for the world" and "riches for the Gentiles" in Rom_11:12 . (When a person comes to Christ by faith God’s work of reconciliation is appropriated to him and he then has fellowship with God and the spiritual enmity is removed.)

Because Paul was convinced that Israel’s stumbling is temporary, he asked, What will their acceptance be but life from the dead? (lit., "out from dead ones") This question explains the clause, "How much greater riches will their fullness bring" (Rom_11:12 ). Israel’s "acceptance" of Christ is related to "the first resurrection" (Rev_20:4-6 ), the resurrection of life (Joh_5:29 1 , KJV). The first resurrection includes dead saints at the Rapture (1Th_4:13-18 ), martyred Great Tribulation saints raised at Christ’s return (Rev_20:4 , Rev_20:5 ), and believing Old Testament saints (Dan_12:1-2 ). The second resurrection will include all the wicked dead to be judged at the great white throne judgment (Rev_20:5 , Rev_20:12-13 ). The teaching that there will be one general resurrection of all humanity at one time fails to take these distinctions into account.

Faith in Jesus, is what I have, man may spend hours fighting about timing, with words like Pre-Mid-Post Tribulation which only serves to split the body of Christ and causes many to fight over something that we really should not be worring about. {IMHO}

The bottom line is: Israel shall live, she was the first chosen and she will rise to become a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God.

Rom 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

Rom 9:31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.

Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Rom 9:33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Jas 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?

Dennis

Thanks Dennis, am looking further into it.

Don't understand why you posted scripture about arguing. We not fighting here.