Question???

[Littlelambseativy]

This is after the millennium and the second coming at which time the Lord separates those living at that time into those who followed him - the sheep - and those who did not as the goats. The rapture had already taken place 1000 years earlier and those living during the intervening time are being judged.

[Massorite]

They are the nations after the rapture. Those nations that have supported the Jewish people are the sheep that will be allowed to live on Earth during the Millennium versus the nations, like Iran, who have not support the Jewish people, they are the goats who will go right away to hell.

I have no scripture. Bible Scholars, please check me out.

If you haven't got any scripture to back your self up then why even bother to inject that which can not be proved? What a waste of your time and it only serves to confuse baby Christians.

[Massorite]

Who are these people who are being diveded into groups of sheep and goats....

Matt 25:31-26:1

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,

then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "And all the nations will be

gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd

separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right,

and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right,

'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you

from the foundation of the world. 35'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something

to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited

Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in

prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,

'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?

38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe

You? 39'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And

the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that

you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it

to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me,

accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and

his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty,

and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me

in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit

Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see

You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did

not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to

you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did

not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the

righteous into eternal life."

NASB

This passage is referring to the churches, Christians who were able to make it through the tribulation period. Them that are counted as sheep are true Christians who shall receive blessings of God. Them that are counted as goats are Christians who were Christians in name only. They profess Christ and even have signs and wonders to "back up" their claims, but in reality they are not, and shall be cast into hellfire. Thus, this is what Jesus meant when he said, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

I agree 100%.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, other one.

Who are these people who are being diveded into groups of sheep and goats....

Matt 25:31-26:1

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,

then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "And all the nations will be

gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd

separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right,

and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right,

'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you

from the foundation of the world. 35'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something

to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited

Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in

prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,

'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?

38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe

You? 39'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And

the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that

you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it

to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me,

accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and

his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty,

and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me

in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit

Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see

You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did

not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to

you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did

not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the

righteous into eternal life."

NASB

These are the ones who come against Isra'el just prior to the Master's return. When He sits upon His "glorious throne" or His shining throne, He will have a war tribunal and judge between those nations who treated His people (both the Jews He will rule and the Jewish and Gentile believers with whom He will rule) prior to His arrival. Those who are allowed to live will have the chance to live on the earth during the Millennium and become tributary nations to His Isra'eli Kingdom; those who have been instrumental in the misery of His people will meet their doom. Notice, however, that He doesn't say that they will "go away into eternal punishment" immediately; however, they will definitely NOT participate in His Kingdom's blessings.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Calypsis4.

The sheep and the goats are the survivors of the tribulation, taken by the angels to Jerusalem where Jesus (sitting on the throne of David) will divide them and judge them. The wicked will be placed to His left hand and the righteous (who will repopluate the earth during the Millenium) will be on his right hand. Then the kingdom age of peace and tranquility will begin.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:32-33.

You're right; however, don't forget that the "peace and tranquility" is SOLELY for Yeshua`s Kingdom during the Millennium, not for the entire earth (until, of course, Yeshua` becomes haMelekh malakhiym, the King of kings, of the entire earth). We also have passages, such as Psalm 2, that give a MUCH different view of the Millennium than some will claim.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, other one.

Who are these people who are being diveded into groups of sheep and goats....

Matt 25:31-26:1

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him,

then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "And all the nations will be

gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd

separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right,

and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right,

'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you

from the foundation of the world. 35'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something

to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited

Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in

prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,

'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?

38'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe

You? 39'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And

the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that

you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it

to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me,

accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and

his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty,

and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me

in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit

Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see

You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did

not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to

you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did

not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the

righteous into eternal life."

NASB

No doubt in my mind that this is indeed talking about the Second Coming or the Second Advent of Yeshua` haMashiach - Jesus the Messiah or the Christ, especially in light that it is THEN that "He will sit on His glorious throne." However, just reading others' responses, one can see that it depends on what one believes happens AFTER His Second Coming that will determine how they answer this question. I believe in a Millennium in the future; I believe that Revelation 20:1-6 has not happened at all, yet. Therefore, I believe - based on how I interpret prophecy both from the Tanakh (the OT) and from the B'rit Chadashah (the NT) - in premillennialism. As such, I see the Second Coming as the BEGINNING of the Millennium, when Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym - Jesus the Messiah of God - will reign as haMelekh Yisra'el - the King of Isra'el. Therefore, I believe that Yeshua` was saying that His fellow countrymen, His LITERAL siblings and cousins and nephews and nieces through the children of Isra'el, particularly the children of Y'hudah (Judah), the Jews, are His "brethren" or "brothers" or more generically, His "siblings."

To these, however, I would also add those "branches that were grafted into the Olive Tree," the believing Gentiles (Romans 11). These too, through adoption or conversion, are also His brothers. Therefore, I believe that He will be judging these nations based on how they treated both the Jews and how they treated true believers in the Messiah whom most call "Christians" today.

So, WHO are the nations that are gathered before Him? I believe that these are the nations who had a part in the final battle of Har-Megiddown ("Armageddon") or Tel Megiddo, the hill that acts as a lookout post at the crossroads of the road running from Haifa to Jenin (Hwy 66) and the road heading southwest (Hwy 65) from the southern suburbs of Nazareth to the highway that leads toward Tel Aviv/Yafo and to Jerusalem from there. It overlooks the natural staging area today called Gei-Yizre'el or the Jezreel Valley, extending southeast from Haifa in northern Isra'el. Many of these nations will be chased out of the capitol into the mountains of Isra'el northward to this location.

I believe what we are reading about in Matthew 25 is a WAR TRIBUNAL in which Yeshua` haMelekh will be deciding the fates of these nations.

Some of these nations will be annexed as tributary states to Isra'el, but those who mistreated His people will be resigned to fend for themselves until such time as they will receive their final judgment at the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium. Notice that the account does NOT say that they will be tied up "in bundles to burn" as Yeshua`s "wheat and tares" parable. He just sends them away. God's hatred, as for Esav (Esau), is to LEAVE THEM ALONE and NOT WORK WITH THEM, as He does for those whom He loves!

By the way, Tel Megiddo is at 32 degrees, 35 minutes, 06.31 seconds north lattitude, 35 degrees, 11 minutes, 04.53 seconds east longitude, and one can use Google Earth or MapQuest to find it easily.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Calypsis4.

Shabbat shalom, Calypsis4.

The sheep and the goats are the survivors of the tribulation, taken by the angels to Jerusalem where Jesus (sitting on the throne of David) will divide them and judge them. The wicked will be placed to His left hand and the righteous (who will repopluate the earth during the Millenium) will be on his right hand. Then the kingdom age of peace and tranquility will begin.

And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Matthew 25:32-33.

You're right; however, don't forget that the "peace and tranquility" is SOLELY for Yeshua`s Kingdom during the Millennium, not for the entire earth (until, of course, Yeshua` becomes haMelekh malakhiym, the King of kings, of the entire earth). We also have passages, such as Psalm 2, that give a MUCH different view of the Millennium than some will claim.

Psalm 2 only touches on a few things concerning the millenium, which will be a time of peace and quiet throughout the earth. Jesus will be king over the whole earth. The rage and hate spoken of in that chapter refers to that of the tribulation.

" And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

Sorry, Calypsis4, but that's just not right! It will NOT be a "time of peace and quiet throughout the earth!" That's a myth that someone started based NOT on the prophecies of the Messiah's Kingdom but on the New Jerusalem in the New Earth! We are NOT told that this will be how the Millennium will work! To the contrary, we ARE told that this is NOT how the Millennium will work! Psalm 2 touches the PULSE of the Millennium! Why is the decree that He will "rule the nations with a ROD OF IRON?" Why do you think the kings of the earth are meeting together to "throw off the bonds of YHVH and His Messiah?" Psalm 2 is NOT about the "tribulation"; it is about the time when Yeshua` is IN CHARGE as King!

Yeshua` (Jesus) doesn't rule over the whole earth all at once any more than He became King all at once. Let's use the verse you've added here, Isaiah 2:4: Within this single verse, Yeshua` is said to "judge among the nations" and shall "rebuke many people!" Why will He need to judge them? Why will He need to rebuke them? Why do you think He rules and subdues His enemies for a THOUSAND YEARS?! No, the Kingdom will grow SLOWLY!

Look at the prophecies in Dani'el:

Dan. 2:35, 44-45

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

...

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

KJV

Dan. 7:21-27

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

KJV

How long do you think it would take for a stone cut out of a mountain to grow until it itself became a mountain large enough to "fill the whole earth?"

Yeshua` didn't turn away the crowds when He was here during His First Advent; however, it is clear in the Gospels that He preferred to work with people one-on-one, as He did with the woman at the well and with Nicodemus. What makes you think He will work any differently when He comes for His Second Advent?

Consider the parables of Matthew 13: With the exception of the first parable, all the rest are said to be parables about the KINGDOM! Indeed, they make better sense if they are about the time when Yeshua` is physically reigning in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el from His father David's throne!

Matt. 13:24-33, 36-51

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

KJV

These are parables about the KINGDOM, not about this present age! The "Church" is NOT the KINGDOM, and these parables are DEFINITELY about the MILLENNIUM, the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom after He has returned!

Just because they will come to the point where they will not be allowed to "learn war anymore" doesn't mean that there won't be conflict! There will still be evil in the world, sickness, pain, and death! The death doesn't end until AFTER the 1000 years! THAT'S when "death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:7-15)

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Calypsis4.

Shalom, Calypsis4.

Psalm 2 only touches on a few things concerning the millenium, which will be a time of peace and quiet throughout the earth. Jesus will be king over the whole earth. The rage and hate spoken of in that chapter refers to that of the tribulation.

" And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

Sorry, Calypsis4, but that's just not right! It will NOT be a "time of peace and quiet throughout the earth!" That's a myth that someone started based NOT on the prophecies of the Messiah's Kingdom but on the New Jerusalem in the New Earth! We are NOT told that this will be how the Millennium will work! To the contrary, we ARE told that this is NOT how the Millennium will work! Psalm 2 touches the PULSE of the Millennium! Why is the decree that He will "rule the nations with a ROD OF IRON?" Why do you think the kings of the earth are meeting together to "throw off the bonds of YHVH and His Messiah?" Psalm 2 is NOT about the "tribulation"; it is about the time when Yeshua` is IN CHARGE as King!

Yeshua` (Jesus) doesn't rule over the whole earth all at once any more than He became King all at once. Let's use the verse you've added here, Isaiah 2:4: Within this single verse, Yeshua` is said to "judge among the nations" and shall "rebuke many people!" Why will He need to judge them? Why will He need to rebuke them? Why do you think He rules and subdues His enemies for a THOUSAND YEARS?! No, the Kingdom will grow SLOWLY!

Look at the prophecies in Dani'el:

Dan. 2:35, 44-45

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

...

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

KJV

Dan. 7:21-27

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

KJV

How long do you think it would take for a stone cut out of a mountain to grow until it itself became a mountain large enough to "fill the whole earth?"

Yeshua` didn't turn away the crowds when He was here during His First Advent; however, it is clear in the Gospels that He preferred to work with people one-on-one, as He did with the woman at the well and with Nicodemus. What makes you think He will work any differently when He comes for His Second Advent?

Consider the parables of Matthew 13: With the exception of the first parable, all the rest are said to be parables about the KINGDOM! Indeed, they make better sense if they are about the time when Yeshua` is physically reigning in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el from His father David's throne!

Matt. 13:24-33, 36-51

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

KJV

These are parables about the KINGDOM, not about this present age! The "Church" is NOT the KINGDOM, and these parables are DEFINITELY about the MILLENNIUM, the first 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom after He has returned!

Just because they will come to the point where they will not be allowed to "learn war anymore" doesn't mean that there won't be conflict! There will still be evil in the world, sickness, pain, and death! The death doesn't end until AFTER the 1000 years! THAT'S when "death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire" (Rev. 20:7-15)

You are in error, but I am not going to argue with you.

No, you're just going to say I'm "in error!" And, that's not arguing?

The parables are about the kingdom...but the church is part of that kingdom and always has been. The kingdom that now exists is not just in heaven but in the hearts of every single believer...on earth. Jesus said so: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

You've been misled by such arguments. To whom was Yeshua` talking when He said these words and what did He mean?

Luke 17:20-21

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

KJV

First, understand that the King James Version of the Bible is my preferred version because it has PRESERVED the "thee's" and "thou's" in Scripture (and because it still has the most study helps available of any English version). We don't readily see the importance of how verse 21 is worded, but it is significant.

I'd like to present you with a simple chart, but I'll have to settle for an outline format instead:

Second Person

I. Subjective Case

I. A. Singular - Thou

I. B. Plural - Ye

II. Objective Case

II. A. Singular - Thee

II. B. Plural - You

III. Possessive Case

III. A. As a pronoun

III. A. 1. Singular - Thine

III. A. 2. Plural - Yours

III. B. As an adjective

III. B. 1. Singular - Thy

III. B. 2. Plural - Your

This is the importance of the “thee’s” and “thou’s” in English. They show NUMBER as well as CASE! We’ve reduced all this down to “you,” “your,” and “yours” in today’s English, and we’ve lost the built-in information of HOW MANY “second persons” are in question.

Notice, then, that the word "you" in the KJV is the plural, objective case of the second person. Therefore in verse 21, when Yeshua` said, "the kingdom of God is within you," "hee basileia tou Theou entos humoon estin," He was NOT saying that it was in each one of them, but was in all of them AS A GROUP to whom He was talking! If He had meant that it was within each one of them, He would have been translated as having said, "the kingdom is within THEE," "hee basileia tou Theou entos sou estin."

Second, notice in verse 20 that He was talking to the P'RUSHIYM or the PHARISEES! Do you seriously believe that Yeshua` was saying that the Kingdom of God was within each one of the Pharisees?!

Third, the Greek word "entos" translated as "within" can also be translated as "among," if the context warrants it, and in this case, it does. Yeshua` was not saying that the Kingdom of God was “within” the Pharisees; He was saying that the Kingdom of God was “AMONG” the Pharisees! One thing you will find time and time again in the Gospels, the history book of Acts, and Paul's letters is that the Kingdom of God is INTIMATELY TIED TO the presence of the King! See, the Kingdom requires three things: The one who is the rightful heir to reign (the King), willing subjects over which He will reign, and a realm over which He will reign. All three must be present before the Kingdom will be present. For instance, in the Captivity to Bavel (Babylon) and Persia, there was a rightful heir (Zorobavel or Zerubbabel) and willing subjects, but they didn't have the realm; therefore, there was no Kingdom. When the children of Isra'el answered to God through Sh'mu'el (Samuel), they had the realm (the Land of Isra'el) and willing subjects, but they as yet didn't have a human king; therefore, their perception was that they didn't have a Kingdom like the other kingdoms around them. Right now, Isra'el has a realm (the Land of Isra'el) and willing subjects, but they as yet have no King because the Messiah hasn't arrived; therefore, their nation is not yet a Kingdom. Their highest office is a "Prime Minister," literally, a "First Servant" - a STEWARD to the rightful Heir who will be King! When Yeshua` was present during His First Advent, they had the rightful Heir and the realm, but they didn't have willing subjects, thanks in large part to the efforts of the Pharisees; so again, they didn't have a Kingdom.

What Yeshua` was saying was that HE was the rightful Heir - the King Apparent - the Messiah of God - the Anointed of God TO BE King - and that, through Him, the Kingdom of God was right there among them because HE was right there among them!

Fourth, "the church is part of that kingdom" ONLY in the sense that they are willing subjects for that Kingdom; however, without the subjects being in the Land and without the physical presence of the King, they are - at BEST - willing subjects for a Kingdom that does not yet exist. You REALLY need to pay close attention to the wording (particularly in the Greek) of these passages: Luke 19:11-28; Matthew 25:31; and Acts 1:6-12.

Not only so but we are told by Paul that the kingdom of God is a present reality for every Christian: "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." Romans 14:17. Furthermore, the disciples preached the kingdom following the example of their Lord: "And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick." The church was involved in all things described by Jesus concerning the kingdom so by no means is the kingdom teaching restricted to the millenial period.

Sorry, but there is nothing in Romans 14:17 or its context to demand that the Kingdom of God is a “present reality for every Christian.” This passage is talking about PRINCIPLE and the CHARACTER of the Kingdom, not its presence! We can have some of the benefits of the Kingdom ahead of time because of the indwelling of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God, but that does NOT mean that the Kingdom has already arrived! We can be willing subjects for His Kingdom ahead of time, but WE do not make a Kingdom; YESHUA` THE MESSIAH (JESUS CHRIST) does! It is quite evident in our society and in our congregations that we do NOT experience the totality of the presence of His Kingdom!

No, there will be no war during the Millenial kingdom: Period. It is precisely BECAUSE Jesus will rule with a rod of iron that men cannot war during that time. That will not happen again until Satan is loosed out of his prison at the end of the 1,000 yr millenial time.

Psalm 2 IS about the tribulation. That is the time in human history that mankind will be at great rage (Satanically inspired hatred!)...but no unsaved person will enter into the visible kingdom of Christ; for they (the goats) will be sent to hell. The millenial kingdom will be a time of great rejoicing and Jerusalem itself will be the joy of the whole earth.

"And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited." Zechariah 14:11

"But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying." Isaiah 65:17-18

"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:23

So, if all flesh comes to worship the Prince of peace in Jerusalem each year then who will wage war? How could you possibly miss that?

And again, the prophets said, Micah 4:3 "And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

All the scripture you quoted is true, of course, but you have badly missapplied those passages.

Nonetheless, best wishes to you.

Look carefully at the verses you just quoted. (I need no more to bolster my claim.)

"And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but JERUSALEM shall be safely inhabited." Zechariah 14:11

"But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create JERUSALEM a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice IN JERUSALEM, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard IN HER, nor the voice of crying." Isaiah 65:17-18

"And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. Isaiah 66:23

When you asked, “So, if all flesh comes to worship the Prince of peace in Jerusalem each year then who will wage war? How could you possibly miss that?” the answers are simple. No one will wage war, but not necessarily BY CHOICE!

Micah 4:3 not withstanding, we also have these verses to consider:

Zech. 14:16-19

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen (Goyim or Gentile nations) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations (Goyim again) that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

KJV

This is talking about a FORCED peace! There will still be dissenters!

Ever hear the phrase, “You can’t legislate morality?” The “99 Percenters” have forgotten this rule. Ideally, those who are wealthy SHOULD be giving to the poor; they SHOULD be helping others because God has blessed them, but “You CAN’T LEGISLATE MORALITY!” If you force them to do what is right, they will continue to look for loop-holes in the system, pass the burden of whatever debt is placed on their shoulders to those who are under them, and continue in their greed, gluttony, self-indulgence, and high living. They must be changed in their HEARTS! They need to learn humility, respect for God and for others, and learn to be a cheerful giver! If one FORCES them to do what is right through laws and regulations, all he’s done is add to the burden of laws and regulations and governmental control, which is already getting too heavy for us to bear!

Yeshua` can FORCE people not to make war, but He can’t make them like it, or rather, He WON’T force them to like it, and there will be those who balk at the reign of the King of kings, the Emperor, when He is King of THEIR king and forces THEM to keep the Jewish feast of Sukkot by traveling to Jerusalem each year! This is what Psalm 2 is talking about! They WILL try to balk at the commands that are issued from Jerusalem, but GOD THE FATHER HIMSELF won’t allow them to succeed! He will LAUGH at their feeble attempts at UN meetings and remind them that it is HIS will that the Messiah will reign as King of kings with the ROD OF IRON! He will also remind them…

Psalm 2:12

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

KJV

In Hebrew (transliterated), this is…

12 Nashquw BAR pen ye’enaf v-to’Vduw derekh kiy yiv`ar kim`aT apow. Ashreey kaal chowceey bow.

12 Nashquw = 12 You-kiss

BAR = [the]-HEIR

pen = lest/so-that…not

ye’enaf = he-is-enraged/displeased

v-to’Vduw = and-you-perish

derekh = [on-the]-road

kiy = for

yiv`ar = is-kindled

kim`aT = for-a-few/little

apow. = angry-face.

Ashreey = They-are-happy

kaal = all-[who]

chowceey = they-flee-for-protection

bow. = in-Him.

12 You-kiss [the]-HEIR lest/so-that…not he-is-enraged/displeased and-you-perish [on-the]-road for is-kindled for-a-few/little angry-face. They-are-happy all-[who] they-flee-for-protection in-Him.

12 Kiss the HEIR so that He is not displeased and you perish on the road for His angry face is kindled for something little. All who flee for protection in Him are made happy.

The demeanor of the Kingdom Age will be (1) those within the Kingdom - in Jerusalem and Isra'el and even those within His tributary nations - will be happy, be at blissful peace, and content, but (2) those OUTSIDE the Kingdom will be miserable, be at a controlled "peace" with no war, and rebellious in heart! For a thousand years, group (1) will grow and group (2) will shrink until the full count of each group has been reached at the end of the Millennium. Then, haSatan will be released. He'll convince group (2) to join him, and they will attack Jerusalem one last time before their final defeat, judgment, and consignment to the Lake of Fire.

In the Messiah’s love,

Roy

P.S. - I should mention too that the word "worship" in Isa. 66:23 (l-hishtachavot from shaachaah) means to "prostrate oneself in homage to royalty or to God." In other words, they will come and bow down to the King of kings, whether they like it or not! Those within His Kingdom will come and bow gladly in thanksgiving and love; those outside His Kingdom will come and bow grudgingly in fear and compliance; nevertheless, ALL will bow!

Roy

Edited November 3, 2011 by Retrobyter

[Guest]

Right. What I said was enough to cover the bases because Micah 4:3 was bottom line. You wasted a lot of time on this & I won't reply again.

Look

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Micah 4

Look

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:27

Israel

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Zechariah 12:9-10

Look Up

For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning. Psalms 30:5

Look Up And Rejoice

For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering.

In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.

I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. Zephaniah 3:9-9-12

Oh Glory~!

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. Zechariah 3:13-14

[Guest]

You're right; however, don't forget that the "peace and tranquility" is SOLELY for Yeshua`s Kingdom during the Millennium, not for the entire earth (until, of course, Yeshua` becomes haMelekh malakhiym, the King of kings, of the entire earth). We also have passages, such as Psalm 2, that give a MUCH different view of the Millennium than some will claim.

Claim

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which cause them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 39:25-29

To Fame

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.

Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. Zechaniah 14:16-21

Will You Believe It?

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

No?

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160