Does christmas have anything to do with Jesus

[mizzdy]

I'm not hear to bash anyone just struggaling with some scripture that I have read that says not to do as the pagans do and just trying to get some diffrent opinions on what is consider pagan holidays. Was also wondering why we and why the church doesn't teach about the holidays they celebrated in the old testament or were they done away with at the cross.

Nebula wrote a really good post. The idea that people these days bow down to trees, worship pagan dieties along side the Messiah is pretty farfetched. Its my personal beliefs that we should be keeping the days He set aside, and that mixing things up with worldly things is usually not the best course of action. Since God sent people into exile, cut them off for mixing and mingling the things of the world with the things of God, I try to not do that and for me christmas is one of those days. It is not His birthday, we are not even told exactly what day He was born just that it was during Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles. We should not condemn nor fault anyone on the days others have decided to celebrate, we should explore, study and find the answers to those guestions ourselves and make informed decisions based on scriptures and guideance by His Spirit.

shalom,

Mizz

[other one]

Well, from my point of view, Christmas is what you make of it. it can be Christ centered though not Biblical, and it can be about stuff..... or for a growing number of people it can be about paganism.

But, I don't see anywhere the Bible tell us to celebrate Jesus's birthday, and December 25th is not his birthday, and we seem to buy everyone but him a present.......

But if you want to celebrate his birthday on December 25th..... who am I to tell you that it's wrong.

[~Shalhevet~]

This debate is off to an early start this year.

[John Robinson]

For several years I was member of anothr Christian forum, and each year the "should Christians celebrate (fill in the blank) holiday" were some of the more popular ones. They drew from a wide spectrum, from the hyper legalists to sneering agnostics.

As for me, somebody here said it first: since no one really knows when Jesus was born (I'm just glad He was!), December 25th is as good a day as any to celebrate His nativity!

[other one]

The world was transfixed by the year 2000--worried about the'Y2K' bug in computers,

millennial madness in cult groups, political union in Europe, and a proposal to make

Mary "co-redemptrix" in the Catholic Church. While Rome flirted with blasphemy, few

realized that the true 2000th lunar anniversary of the birth of Jesus was August 22, 1998,

or on September 11, 1998 by the solar calendar dating we now use.

Many may live to see the consequences of the anniversary, if it foreshadowed a coming

fake Christ. Or at the least, there were dozens of lunatics eager to take advantage of the

year 2000 hysteria to get the attention of the gullible.

Yet the 2000th anniversary of the Nativity actually came 475 days before year 2000

began. The correct anniversary date was about sundown, Jerusalem time, the end of the

Sabbath, Saturday August 22, 1998.

How can we know the exact day--and nearly the hour--of the birth of Jesus?

Simple arithmatic. A child could have done it, if only the basic assumptions had been

correct. But they weren't. In the 19th century, critical scholars made a crucial decision to

reject a total lunar eclipse in January 1 BC and to accept instead one in March 4 BC, as

the chronological cornerstone for dating the death of Herod the Great, and thereby, the

possible birth years for Jesus.

By so doing, the critics could argue Jesus had to born before 4 BC, contradicting

Luke, who tied Jesus' 30th year to the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar, 27-28 AD. Luke

effectively placed the birth in 3 BC, as did many of the early church fathers. Ironically,

even the date used by the Pope during the Christmas Eve midnight mass ritual is itself

consistent with the last half of 3 BC.

The dirty little secret is that virtually all the available evidence has always pointed

at the harvest period of 3 BC as the focal point of the Nativity--including the possibility

of a late summer birth.

By rejecting Luke, scholars also threw out the date of the birth Luke gives in his

Gospel. In his second chapter, Luke tells what happened the day Mary came to the

Temple for purification 40 days after the birth of Jesus. All one has to know is what

day this was. And Luke plainly names the day. In fact, he includes three statements

identifying the day. So what day was this?

Yom Kippur. The Day of Atonement. The 10th day of the seventh month of the

Hebrew calendar.

In Luke's time, Yom Kippur was called three things: The day of the "Fast," the day

of the "Purification,"and the day of "Redemption." Luke uses all three to identify the

day Jesus was brought to the Temple. And he even quotes the Torah rule that mandates

the 40-day period for the mother to wait after the child's birth [Lk 2:22-38].

And if there were any doubt that it was Yom Kippur, Luke tells of a woman named

Anna who had been in the Temple for a "night and day" without leaving. There was

ONLY ONE DAY A YEAR when a person could pray overnight in the Temple: Yom

Kippur. All other days, the Temple was locked at sundown.

This shows the 40th day of Mary's Purification had begun at the end of Yom Kippur,

the end of the 10th day of the 7th month, because we know the Purification was done at

the earliest opportunity--at the beginning of the 40th day after birth. And since the 6th

month normally had only 29 days, simple arithmatic shows Mary's 39 days of Purification

had to have begun around sundown on the 1st day of the 6th month, called Elul.

This was the night of the first sighting of the new moon of Elul. The Magi in Babylon

were recording this sunset sliver of the new moon on a clay tablet. The cuneiform tablet

the Magi made at that hour 2000 years ago, along with thousands of others from Babylon,

resides in the British Museum. It is possible that this clay tablet was inscribed by one of

the famous Magi who later brought a strange set of gifts to Bethlehem. So the new moon

seen by the Magi in Babylon at the very moment of Jesus being born is recorded on one of

the tablets now in London. Cuneiform scholars have identified the date on this tablet as

equivalent to September, 11, 3 BC.

The Hebrew lunar calendar dates vary with respect to our solar calendar. So the 1st

of Elul was September 11th in 3 BC, but began on August 22 in 1998. The same was true

in the days of the early church, of course. In a given year, the 1st of Elul could have fallen

on September 8th, for example.

This may solve another ancient mystery. No one seems to know how Rome came to

honor September 8th as the birthday of Mary. There is no Biblical, historical, or church

tradition to explain it. It just emerges out of nowhere. Rome keeps the 8th of December as

the Feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary [ie. conceived without original sin]. It is

a holy day of obligation for all Catholics to attend Mass. This feast is clearly based upon

September 8th also, and mortal sin is attached to the failure of a Catholic to observe it, yet

the origins of these dates are unknown.

On the other hand, we can now see that if Jesus were born on September 11th as Luke

indicates, then Jesus would have been conceived around December 8th in 4 BC. The now

mysterious Mary dates fit Jesus quite well. How might this have happened?

In the late 4th century, in early 380 AD, Pope Damasus I was endeavoring to force all

Christians in the Roman Empire to yield to his authority. He got the Emperor to issue an

edict requiring them to practice the religion of Rome. We know that it is about this time

the Christmas midnight Mass was first celebrated and December 25th first identified as a

Catholic holy day. It is said Damasus was seeking to lure the people away from pagan

rites honoring the birth of the sun god at midnight by compelling Catholic attendance at a

memorial in honor of Christ's death, ie the Mass. The people confused this Mass with the

pagan solar birth rituals conducted at that same time. Gradually, the Christ-Mass became

associated with the Nativity.

Meanwhile, the true feast around September 8th, which naturally honored Mary in

giving birth to Jesus, was converted into a day commemorating her own birth, and an old

holyday honoring the conception of Jesus was converted into a day commemorating the

conception of Mary on December 8th. Strangely, there is still widespread belief among

non-Catholics that this is the day Jesus was concieved--a possible lingering remembrance

of the original meaning of this date.

We can also tell from Luke's Gospel that Jesus had been born in early evening, for

Luke says the shepherds were keeping watch by night, but still had time to go into town

and tell the people what they had seen earlier that evening. People rose early with the sun

in those days, and would have been asleep by 9 or 10 pm. Therefore, the birth had taken

place no later than 8 pm, and probably before 7 pm. Yet Luke says it happened at night,

which means after sunset--surely after 6 pm in September. Hence, it follows that Jesus

was born within a few minutes of 6:30-7:30 pm on the evening of September 11th, 3 BC.

A confirmation of this time is in the book of Revelation. Historian Ernest L. Martin

consulted NASA lunar-phase tables and found the image of the heavens in Revelation 12

showed where the sun and the moon were, relative to Virgo, at the time Jesus was born,

pin-pointing sunset of September 11th of 3 BC. It seems the moon moves so quickly it is

"beneath the feet" of Virgo only a few hours every month. Moreover, the moon comes

within two lunar diameters of Virgo's feet at the time of a new moon but once in 30 years.

The only such occurance any time near the birth of Jesus was on September 11th, 3 BC.

Most previous attempts at determining the birth time were based upon astrology and

dating the Star of Bethlehem. No one considered 3 BC because that year had erroneously

been assumed to follow Herod's death. However, Dr. Martin has proven that Herod did

not die in 4 BC, but in 1 BC. Scholars are now generally accepting the new chronology for

Herod, and this in turn has allowed the confirmation of the New Testament date for the

birth of Jesus. Unfortunately, many churches continue to promote the critics' errors and

paganized traditions about the Nativity.

[other one]

You can read Dr. Martin's book here for free

Book

[nebula]

Interesting, Other One - thanks!

(Sept. 11, though . . . a little freaky.)

[Guest]

Hi everyone

I think I've or maybe we have been deceived by parents and the church about Christmas what's your thoughts on this issue?

:24:

Welcome

To A Worthy

Christmas

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)

To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

Luke 2:1-8

____________

_________

______

___

The Gentile Debt

Scattered by God's avenging hand,

Afflicted and forlorn,

Sad wanderers from their pleasant land

Do Judah's children mourn.

And even in Christian countries, few

Breathe thoughts of pity for the Jew.

But listen, gentile, do you love

The Bible's printed page?

Then let your heart in kindness move

To Israel's heritage.

Who traced those lines for you?

Each sacred writer was a Jew!

Then, as years and ages passed,

And nations rose and fell;

Though clouds and darkness oft were cast

O'er captive Israel,

The oracles of God for you

Were kept in safety by the Jew.

And when the great Redeemer came

For guilty man to bleed,

He did not take an angel's name,

Was born of Abram's seed.

Jesus, who gave His life for you,

The gentle Savior was a Jew.

And though His own received Him not

And turned in pride away;

Whence is the gentile's happier lot,

Are you more just than they?

No, God in mercy turned to you;

Have you no pity for the Jew?

Go then, and bend your knees and pray

For Israel's ancient race.

Ask Jehovah every day

To call them by His grace.

Go, for a debt of love is due

From Christian gentiles to the Jew!

by Howard Skinner - from the HOLY LAND:

[oldzimm]

I'm not hear to bash anyone just struggaling with some scripture that I have read that says not to do as the pagans do and just trying to get some diffrent opinions on what is consider pagan holidays. Was also wondering why we and why the church doesn't teach about the holidays they celebrated in the old testament or were they done away with at the cross.

Did you ever think that during Christmas, pagans are doing what Christians do? The pagans only use the parts of Christmas that meet their needs, as an example, to them it is an excuse for another day off work.

[Guest]

I'm not here to bash anyone just struggling with some scripture that I have read that says not to do as the pagans do and just trying to get some different opinions on what is consider pagan holidays. Was also wondering why we and why the church doesn't teach about the holidays they celebrated in the old testament or were they done away with at the cross.

Did you ever think that during Christmas, pagans are doing what Christians do? The pagans only use the parts of Christmas that meet their needs, as an example, to them it is an excuse for another day off work.

I Would That All Pagans Celebrate Christmas

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthews 2:1-2

As Believers Should

And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. Genesis 22:6-8

Hallelujah~!

Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Revelation 5:12-13

Glory~! Glory To The KING OF KINGS~!