Revelation 17

[th1bill]

Revelation 17:1:

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

Revelation 17:2:

With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Revelation 17:3:

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

One of the single most important points to remember and yet the most difficult to grasp is the illustration given in scripture that there is no relevance to earth time in Heaven. (2Pet. 3:8, Psa. 90:4) For this reason we can nad should understand, in my opinion, that John saw these things happening, first hand. I know that it is difficult to support but it is my position that the Glorified Body that Jesus now has and we will have is not at all like the body we now have in composition.

If we can get past the natural (what we are familiar with) arguments and learn to accept the teaching of the Holy Spirit, on it's face value, it is easier to grasp what is told here. This angel did not, again, in my opinion, deliver a vision to John but rather, with the consent of God, allowed John the use of one of the normal functions of the Glorified Body and John, in this passage, is actually viewing the judgment of Babylon.

Revelation 17:4:

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Revelation 17:5:

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

So it is that here we find one of the passages, that without the Holy Spirit's input, can be extremely confusing. Remembering that we take the Bible in the Literal manor, here is a metaphor. We know from the archaeologists that Babylon is not some fable dreamed of but rather is a historical fact and if we are up on current affairs, we know that Saddam Hussein was busy rebuilding that old city again. Now we find it here in the pages of this prophecy, some 2,000 years old, represented by a whore. It is a matter worthy of prayer for understanding, meditation and study.

Revelation 17:6:

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 17:7:

And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

It would seem certain that John was just as normal as the rest of us, he was impressed by what he saw. The angel, much like the Holy Spirit, in us, corrects and begins to instruct however.

Revelation 17:8:

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:9:

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

Revelation 17:10:

And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation of John 17:11:

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Revelation of John 17:12:

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Revelation of John 17:13:

These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Revelation of John 17:14:

These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

7-14 The beast on which the woman sat was, and is not, and yet is. It was a seat of idolatry and persecution, and is not; not in the ancient form, which was pagan: yet it is; it is truly the seat of idolatry and tyranny, though of another sort and form. It would deceive into stupid and blind submission all the inhabitants of the earth within its influence, except the remnant of the elect. This beast was seven heads, seven mountains, the seven hills on which Rome stands; and seven kings, seven sorts of government. Five were gone by when this prophecy was written; one was then in being; the other was yet to come. This beast, directed by the papacy, makes an eighth governor, and sets up idolatry again. It had ten horns, which are said to be ten kings who had as yet no kingdoms; they should not rise up till the Roman empire was broken; but should for a time be very zealous in her interest. Christ must reign till all enemies be put under his feet. The reason of the victory is, that he is the King of kings, and Lord of lords. He has supreme dominion and power over all things; all the powers of earth and hell are subject to his control. His followers are called to this warfare, are fitted for it, and will be faithful in it.(MHCC)

Revelation of John 17:15:

And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Revelation of John 17:16:

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Revelation of John 17:17:

For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Revelation of John 17:18:

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

These last four verses give us the playbook to work from when dealing with this chapter so that we can take the meaning of this chapter and some others as literal. The Book of the Revelation is recorded in the same manor and style as the Bible, the books now called the Old Testament. The first thing we learn is that warters, plural, is often used to represent peoples of different nations and tongues or languages.

Here, we also learn that God does exercise His sovereign will to the point that even the lost and going to Hell will do His will. This is one of the points that the Five Point Calvinist loves to use to prove their erroneous theory of Predestination. Predestination is a fact because it is taught in the Revealed Word of God. The problem enters when men take the Bible out of context.

When we allow the scriptures to interpret themselves, the way Father God intended it becomes imperative to, as scripture teaches, understand that the wisdom of God is limitless. Then we must learn one very vital lesson from the Bible, there is no relationship with time in Heaven! (2Pet. 3:8 and Psa. 90:4) It is my opinion from the study I did, some years ago, that God is. To explain; As demonstrated by these scriptures and a book I read recently, ¨Heaven Is For Real,¨ God is, simultaneously in the present, the past and the future. So it is that God knows the future.

I´m not saying that God that God will not, has not nor that He will not force His will on the lost. Clearly, He has and from the prophetic readings, he will. But, before He created the universes, He knew the names in the Book of Life. From our reading, meditating and praying over the scriptures, we know that our God is not a cruel God, He is Just! It is the Calvinist´s view that God creates a few to go to Heaven and all the rest to spend eternity in Hell, NOT! If a man has read the scriptures, he or she knows that God loves all of His creation but He is also a Just God and will serve justice.

[other one]

What you say about time in heaven fits in with both string and "M" physics as heaven is in higher dimensions. Once we are allowed there comes eternity because there is no time in heaven One can skip through linear time as easy as you can pick up a pencil from the left side of a sheet of paper and make a mark on the other. At least according to theoretical mathematics.

[th1bill]

What you say about time in heaven fits in with both string and "M" physics as heaven is in higher dimensions. Once we are allowed there comes eternity because there is no time in heaven One can skip through linear time as easy as you can pick up a pencil from the left side of a sheet of paper and make a mark on the other. At least according to theoretical mathematics.

LOL!!! You almost lost this anceint Eighth Grader with a GED, I love it!

[joi]

Revelation 22:2

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Is this supposed to happen in time or eternity? I ask because the word month is mentioned and this implies time.

Interesting study th1bill, thank you.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, other one.

What you say about time in heaven fits in with both string and "M" physics as heaven is in higher dimensions. Once we are allowed there comes eternity because there is no time in heaven One can skip through linear time as easy as you can pick up a pencil from the left side of a sheet of paper and make a mark on the other. At least according to theoretical mathematics.

Eternity is not the ABSENCE of time; eternity is TIME IMMEMORIAL, for ALL OF TIME!

Many Christian theologians have made the mistake of taking Revelation 10:6 to mean the absence of time:

Revelation 10:5-6

5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,

6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

KJV

However, people who take this viewpoint fail to understand two pertinent points:

First, the Greek word "chronos" translated "time" can also mean "delay."

Second, the context of this verse goes on to show that in this particular place, the word SHOULD be interpreted as "delay."

Here's the Greek (transliterated):

5 Kai ho aggelos, hon eidon hestoota epi tees thalassees kai epi tees gees eeren teen cheira autou teen dexian eis ton ouranon

6 kai oomosen en too Zoonti eis tous aioonas toon aioonoon, hos ektisen ton ouranon kai ta en autoo kai teen geen kai ta en autee kai teen thalassan kai ta en autee hoti chronos ouketi estai,

7 all' en tais heemerais tees foonees tou hebdomou aggelou, hotan mellee salpizein, kai etelesthee to musteerion tou Theou, hoos eueeggelisen tous heautou doulous tous profeetas.

5 Kai = 5 And

ho = the

aggelos, = messenger/angel,

hon = which

eidon = I-saw

hestoota = standing

epi = above/upon

tees = the

thalassees = sea

kai = and

epi = above/upon

tees = the

gees, = earth,

eeren = lifted

teen = the

cheira = hand

autou = of-him/his

teen = the

dexian = right-one

eis = into

ton = the

ouranon = sky

6 kai = 6 and

oomosen = swore

en = in

too = the

Zoonti = Living-One

eis = into

tous = the

aioonas = ages

toon = of-the

aioonoon, = ages

hos = who

ektisen = created

ton = the

ouranon = sky

kai = and

ta = the-things

en = in

autoo = it

kai = and

teen = the

geen = earth

kai = and

ta = the-things

en = in

autee = it

kai = and

teen = the

thalassan = sea

kai = and

ta = the-things

en = in

autee = it

hoti = that

chronos = time/delay

ouketi = no-longer

estai, = should-be,

7 all' = 7 but

en = in

tais = the

heemerais = days

tees = of-the

foonees = voice

tou = of-the

hebdomou = seventh

aggelou, = messenger/angel,

hotan = when

mellee = he-shall-begin

salpizein, = to-sound,

kai = and

etelesthee = should-be-finished

to = the

musteerion = mystery/secret

tou = of-the

Theou, = God,

hoos = like/as

eueeggelisen = He-has-heralded-good-news

tous = to-the

heautou = of-Him/His

doulous = servants

tous = the

profeetas. = prophets.

There WILL continue to be time "into the ages of the ages." Consider the following verses:

Isaiah 66:22-23

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

KJV

This passage is not just talking about some short span of time, such as the Millennium; it is talking about continuance into eternity as per God's promise to Isra'el and his "seed" or progeny. Furthermore, it supports two things:

First, the moon must continue to exist since it is by the moon that Ro'sh Chodesh (the "Holy Head' or the Head of the month) is determined.

Second the sun must continue to exist as well as the earth's rotation to it since it is by such a rotation that days are determined so that every seventh day, a Shabbat or Sabbath, may be calculated.

As time is determined by the movement of matter through space, time will also continue into the vanishing point of the future.

Furthermore, the Greek word "ouranos," sometimes translated as "heaven" and sometimes as "sky," is simply the earth's atmosphere. There was a Greek word that meant having to do with "above the sky" or "outer space," "epouranios," and it is either translated as "heavenly" (same as "ouranios," meaning having to do with the "sky," unfortunately) or "celestial" in the King James Authorized Version of the Bible.

In the Tanakh (the OT), the same is true for the Hebrew word "shaamayim," sometimes translated as "heaven," "Heaven," "heavens," or "air" in the KJV and also as "sky" in other versions. The phrase translated "heaven of heavens," "shaameey shaamayim," is used for the area above the sky which we would call "space."

One must be careful not to read into the Scriptures more than the authors, including THE Author, intended to communicate.

[other one]

I'm just telling you what string and M theoritical physics says.....

[th1bill]

Revelation 22:2

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Is this supposed to happen in time or eternity? I ask because the word month is mentioned and this implies time.

Interesting study th1bill, thank you.

In Eternity and your certainly welcome. My mission is to interest folks in the scriptures.

[Littlelambseativy]

I think you better do some in-depth study on Calvanism if you are going to comment on it - do not take what you hear someone else say but do your own research first.

[Littlelambseativy]

I think you better do some in-depth study on Calvanism if you are going to comment on it - do not take what you hear someone else say but do your own research first.

Are you speaking to me? I didn't comment on Calvanism. I commented on Rev 17

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I was replying to th1bill and the erroneous comments on Calvinism.

[th1bill]

I think you better do some in-depth study on Calvanism if you are going to comment on it - do not take what you hear someone else say but do your own research first.

Since you hit me with an undirectional shot-gun blast it is difficult to answer. Without intelligent comment all I can say in response is that I have spent the last 22 years and a few days now dealing with where I stand and why. During the course of those years I spent 2 years in class with Baptists of all three bents and since ´95 I have both done thorough search investigations and dealt with so many Calvinists and Mellinialists I coulod never begin to count the encounters.

I´ll admit to the point that you Calvinists appear to have a good deal of trouble with what you believe but that does not dismiss anything I have said. What I have said quantifies the majority opinion. You might wish to investigate the world wide group of people you have chosen to label yourself as a member of. I´m not trying to be snappy, just honest and if you have a probloem with a point or points I made it will always be helpful to tell me what that or they are.