Margret Mcdonald and the Pre-Trib Origins

[ENOCH2010]

Well I think alot of the problem is calling it a rapture in the first place. The term rapture is being used in refernce to being caught up with Jesus and apostle, prophets, and the saints. People took this idea of being caught up with Christ and fabricated a false doctrine. The scripture says nothing about a rapture before the tribulation. Ive never even seen the word rapture in association with the tribulation in the Bible. The Bible clearly explains itself and warns us against adding to and taking away from its Word. Concepts like the rapture and millenialism take excerpts of the Bible and create a false doctrine around a partial truth, as is the case with all religion. The Bible isnt a religion, its a record of Gods Word throughout the ages as a testament to His mercy. God just wants people to repent from sin, follow the ten commandments, and if you know Jesus to give testimony of Him. Have no doubt, there will be people who followed the commandments that never heard of Jesus or the Bible. The Holy Spirit isnt limited to paper or name but that makes it all the more important for us who have the testimony of Jesus to be of one accord, interpreting the scripture as a whole, and not as a partial truth partial to a biased opinion. The scripture isnt open to private interpretation. So if the Bible clearly states that the dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive will be caught up with them in the clouds. Where is there a pretrib rapture? All I know is when the tribulation comes, whenever that is, those who believe in a pretrib rapture will be caught off guard and might fall because they arent mentally prepared to be martyrs. Unless of course everyone thinks that the son of perdition is a real nice guy who isnt hell bent on killing God, cause thats what he was attempting to do in the garden of eden by causing man (Gods image and likeness) to sin. By reading scripture we know this world isnt going to get better, in fact its going to burn, but believeing that God will "rapture" the church to safety from the tribulation to come is wishful thinking, not scripture, and if youre afraid of being martyred then you might want to pray for strength, or that you die before the son of perdition is revealed. Though that seems harsh the reality of the tribulation will be much harsher in its own terms.

xero

The Rapture (harpozo) is not a false doctrine.

Read 2 Thes 2 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not yo become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, Saying the the Day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. If one can answer these two questions, then one know when the Rapture will occur.

Some of those in the 1at Century thought they had miss the (harpozo) Rapture. Then Paul gives specifics.

xero, why are you not a martyr now. Tens of thousand of Christian have already been martyred. They are with the Lord now. There is no big difference of when one is martyred. Many are not martyred, those believers are with the Lord. Martyrdom is not graduation, it does not bring salvation.

Enoch

Which Resurrection is the first to begin?

In Christ

Montana Marv

Marv you know we have only 1 first resurrection spoken about in the Bible and you know it happens at the second comming of the Lord . Of course the Thes. thought the resurrection had already happened,they had knowledge of all the old testament saints that had risen with the Lord on the third day.That's the resurrection they thought they had missed.

[Montana Marv]

Enoch

Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet...... the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Lake of Fire). v21. - Then the rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Armageddon, start and finish).

No second coming, yet the beast and false prophet are the first ones to receive, or be included into the Second Death (Resurrection). This is at the onset of Armageddon. Then in Rev 20:1 - the Dragon is seized and thrown into the Abyss for 1000 years. This is at the end of Armageddon. The Second Coming does not occur Until Satan is bound and sent to the Abyss.

Now the Second Coming; Zech 14:4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mt of Olives... v6 - On that day, there will be no light, no cold or frost.... v8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem.... v9 - On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Yet you say the First Resurrection (Rapture) occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, But the beast and the false prophet were the first inhabitants of the Second Resurrection, which occurred before the First Resurrection, which was prior to the Second Coming, thus prior to the First Resurrection.

There is a Resurrection for the Righteous (also called the First Resurrection); and there is also a Resurrection for the Unjust (which is called the Second Resurrection). But all may not be included in each individual Resurrections at the same time. The beast and false prophet being the first to receive eternal punishment, then all others after the 1000 years. The Bride of Christ will receive their glorified eternal bodies first (First Resurrection), then others will receive their glorified eternal bodies later.

Lets look at some who are alive during the 1000 years. Zech 14:10 - the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem, will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. v18,19 - The Lord will send a plague of No Rain on Egypt and the other nations who do not come and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Yet you believe that all the just have received their gloried eternal bodies. Why then is the King sending a plague of no rain on some people.

Also read Zech 8:4 - This is what the Lord Almighty says, Once again men and women of ripe old age will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with cane in hand because of his age. (this is during the 1000 years of Christ). When are these to receive their glorified eternal bodies. (being part of the First Resurrection) If one has already received his glorified body, WHY the cane in hand. Imperfection, or is it that they have not yet received their new bodies.

So again, do all who will receive their glorified eternal bodies, receive them at the same time, Or are there waves of time for the peoples who will receive their new bodies. (the First Resurrection, the Resurrection for the just)

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes there are only two Resurrections: One for the Just, and the Other for the Unjust, All do not receive their immortal bodies at the same time.

[He giveth more grace]

Enoch

Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet...... the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Lake of Fire). v21. - Then the rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Armageddon, start and finish).

No second coming, yet the beast and false prophet are the first ones to receive, or be included into the Second Death (Resurrection). This is at the onset of Armageddon. Then in Rev 20:1 - the Dragon is seized and thrown into the Abyss for 1000 years. This is at the end of Armageddon. The Second Coming does not occur Until Satan is bound and sent to the Abyss.

Now the Second Coming; Zech 14:4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mt of Olives... v6 - On that day, there will be no light, no cold or frost.... v8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem.... v9 - On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Yet you say the First Resurrection (Rapture) occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, But the beast and the false prophet were the first inhabitants of the Second Resurrection, which occurred before the First Resurrection, which was prior to the Second Coming, thus prior to the First Resurrection.

There is a Resurrection for the Righteous (also called the First Resurrection); and there is also a Resurrection for the Unjust (which is called the Second Resurrection). But all may not be included in each individual Resurrections at the same time. The beast and false prophet being the first to receive eternal punishment, then all others after the 1000 years. The Bride of Christ will receive their glorified eternal bodies first (First Resurrection), then others will receive their glorified eternal bodies later.

Lets look at some who are alive during the 1000 years. Zech 14:10 - the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem, will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. v18,19 - The Lord will send a plague of No Rain on Egypt and the other nations who do not come and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Yet you believe that all the just have received their gloried eternal bodies. Why then is the King sending a plague of no rain on some people.

Also read Zech 8:4 - This is what the Lord Almighty says, Once again men and women of ripe old age will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with cane in hand because of his age. (this is during the 1000 years of Christ). When are these to receive their glorified eternal bodies. (being part of the First Resurrection) If one has already received his glorified body, WHY the cane in hand. Imperfection, or is it that they have not yet received their new bodies.

So again, do all who will receive their glorified eternal bodies, receive them at the same time, Or are there waves of time for the peoples who will receive their new bodies. (the First Resurrection, the Resurrection for the just)

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes there are only two Resurrections: One for the Just, and the Other for the Unjust, All do not receive their immortal bodies at the same time.

Not tonight!

[Bekkie]

The Words of our Lord on resurrection:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[Arthur Durnan]

Never heard of Margaret McDonald. Why base the Blessed Second Coming of Jesus Christ for His blood-bought Church on a dear Scottish lady rather than on the settled Word of God itself as in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18? After once-for-all-time eternally saving us from sin, death & the coming judgement re Reveleation 20:10-15, wouldn't it then be a bit "off-base" to take us thru that coming judgment with all the plagues of Revelation falling upon us? If that were the case, in reverence, one might justifiably enquire, "Isn't this a bit contradictory?" If we're saved from wrath thru Him, this new scenario of now having to go thru it might indeed be regarded as a lame & impotent conclusion, declining to raise us to some rhetorical Pisgah! A mix of Alice-In-Wonderland and SDA's Ellen Gould Harmon White.

[He giveth more grace]

Never heard of Margaret McDonald. Why base the Blessed Second Coming of Jesus Christ for His blood-bought Church on a dear Scottish lady rather than on the settled Word of God itself as in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18? After once-for-all-time eternally saving us from sin, death & the coming judgement re Reveleation 20:10-15, wouldn't it then be a bit "off-base" to take us thru that coming judgment with all the plagues of Revelation falling upon us? If that were the case, in reverence, one might justifiably enquire, "Isn't this a bit contradictory?" If we're saved from wrath thru Him, this new scenario of now having to go thru it might indeed be regarded as a lame & impotent conclusion, declining to raise us to some rhetorical Pisgah! A mix of Alice-In-Wonderland and SDA's Ellen Gould Harmon White.

What he said! Just messing, Boo! JK

[ENOCH2010]

Enoch

Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet...... the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Lake of Fire). v21. - Then the rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Armageddon, start and finish).

No second coming, yet the beast and false prophet are the first ones to receive, or be included into the Second Death (Resurrection). This is at the onset of Armageddon. Then in Rev 20:1 - the Dragon is seized and thrown into the Abyss for 1000 years. This is at the end of Armageddon. The Second Coming does not occur Until Satan is bound and sent to the Abyss.

Now the Second Coming; Zech 14:4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mt of Olives... v6 - On that day, there will be no light, no cold or frost.... v8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem.... v9 - On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Yet you say the First Resurrection (Rapture) occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, But the beast and the false prophet were the first inhabitants of the Second Resurrection, which occurred before the First Resurrection, which was prior to the Second Coming, thus prior to the First Resurrection.

There is a Resurrection for the Righteous (also called the First Resurrection); and there is also a Resurrection for the Unjust (which is called the Second Resurrection). But all may not be included in each individual Resurrections at the same time. The beast and false prophet being the first to receive eternal punishment, then all others after the 1000 years. The Bride of Christ will receive their glorified eternal bodies first (First Resurrection), then others will receive their glorified eternal bodies later.

Lets look at some who are alive during the 1000 years. Zech 14:10 - the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem, will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. v18,19 - The Lord will send a plague of No Rain on Egypt and the other nations who do not come and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Yet you believe that all the just have received their gloried eternal bodies. Why then is the King sending a plague of no rain on some people.

Also read Zech 8:4 - This is what the Lord Almighty says, Once again men and women of ripe old age will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with cane in hand because of his age. (this is during the 1000 years of Christ). When are these to receive their glorified eternal bodies. (being part of the First Resurrection) If one has already received his glorified body, WHY the cane in hand. Imperfection, or is it that they have not yet received their new bodies.

So again, do all who will receive their glorified eternal bodies, receive them at the same time, Or are there waves of time for the peoples who will receive their new bodies. (the First Resurrection, the Resurrection for the just)

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes there are only two Resurrections: One for the Just, and the Other for the Unjust, All do not receive their immortal bodies at the same time.

Marv, this is my view of the 2 resurrections.

The first resurrection happens at the end of the tribulation,at the second comming of the Lord. Call it rapture,call it the first resurrection,call it the catching away,it doesn't matter it's all the same thing.The Lord will descend from the sky with the trump of God,bringing the spirits of the one's that have died prior to this with Him. Then the dead bodies will rise from the grave,and the rest of the believers that are alive at that time, will join them in the air to receive their immortal bodies. We go with the Lord as he descends on the Mount of Olives to begin the 1000 year reign on this Earth. During the 1000 year reign the Lord will destroy all enemies of righteousness and Israel .

After the 1000 years are finished,prior to the new heavens and new Earth, will be the second resurrection,which is the rest of the dead. They will rise to be judged and receive their immortal bodies,some to join in joy's of the Lord,some to be doomed forever in torment. Notice the Book of Life is also opened at this second resurrection,if only the doomed were at this resurrection, they're would be no need for the Book of Life,only the books that contain the record of evil deeds .

Marv I know I don't understand all the end time writings,that's why I still study and listen to what others have to say about the subject.The only view I can find nothing about in the Bible,is another resurrection (for the rapture to happen with) prior to the 2 I have listed

[Bekkie]

Enoch

Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet...... the two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur (Lake of Fire). v21. - Then the rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Armageddon, start and finish).

No second coming, yet the beast and false prophet are the first ones to receive, or be included into the Second Death (Resurrection). This is at the onset of Armageddon. Then in Rev 20:1 - the Dragon is seized and thrown into the Abyss for 1000 years. This is at the end of Armageddon. The Second Coming does not occur Until Satan is bound and sent to the Abyss.

Now the Second Coming; Zech 14:4 - On that day his feet will stand on the Mt of Olives... v6 - On that day, there will be no light, no cold or frost.... v8 - On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem.... v9 - On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Yet you say the First Resurrection (Rapture) occurs at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, But the beast and the false prophet were the first inhabitants of the Second Resurrection, which occurred before the First Resurrection, which was prior to the Second Coming, thus prior to the First Resurrection.

There is a Resurrection for the Righteous (also called the First Resurrection); and there is also a Resurrection for the Unjust (which is called the Second Resurrection). But all may not be included in each individual Resurrections at the same time. The beast and false prophet being the first to receive eternal punishment, then all others after the 1000 years. The Bride of Christ will receive their glorified eternal bodies first (First Resurrection), then others will receive their glorified eternal bodies later.

Lets look at some who are alive during the 1000 years. Zech 14:10 - the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem, will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. v18,19 - The Lord will send a plague of No Rain on Egypt and the other nations who do not come and celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

Yet you believe that all the just have received their gloried eternal bodies. Why then is the King sending a plague of no rain on some people.

Also read Zech 8:4 - This is what the Lord Almighty says, Once again men and women of ripe old age will sit in the streets of Jerusalem, each with cane in hand because of his age. (this is during the 1000 years of Christ). When are these to receive their glorified eternal bodies. (being part of the First Resurrection) If one has already received his glorified body, WHY the cane in hand. Imperfection, or is it that they have not yet received their new bodies.

So again, do all who will receive their glorified eternal bodies, receive them at the same time, Or are there waves of time for the peoples who will receive their new bodies. (the First Resurrection, the Resurrection for the just)

In Christ

Montana Marv

Yes there are only two Resurrections: One for the Just, and the Other for the Unjust, All do not receive their immortal bodies at the same time.

Marv, this is my view of the 2 resurrections.

The first resurrection happens at the end of the tribulation,at the second comming of the Lord. Call it rapture,call it the first resurrection,call it the catching away,it doesn't matter it's all the same thing.The Lord will descend from the sky with the trump of God,bringing the spirits of the one's that have died prior to this with Him. Then the dead bodies will rise from the grave,and the rest of the believers that are alive at that time, will join them in the air to receive their immortal bodies. We go with the Lord as he descends on the Mount of Olives to begin the 1000 year reign on this Earth. During the 1000 year reign the Lord will destroy all enemies of righteousness and Israel .

After the 1000 years are finished,prior to the new heavens and new Earth, will be the second resurrection,which is the rest of the dead. They will rise to be judged and receive their immortal bodies,some to join in joy's of the Lord,some to be doomed forever in torment. Notice the Book of Life is also opened at this second resurrection,if only the doomed were at this resurrection, they're would be no need for the Book of Life,only the books that contain the record of evil deeds .

Marv I know I don't understand all the end time writings,that's why I still study and listen to what others have to say about the subject.The only view I can find nothing about in the Bible,is another resurrection (for the rapture to happen with) prior to the 2 I have listed

The Words of our Lord on resurrection:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

[xero]

Bekkie makes the best point. Just saying.