The Church, Israel and spiritual gifts.

[Zemke]

Thank you two very much. Thank you Lord. What you have said is confirming and does pull together what is put together in the text.

Please continue.

[NathanH]

I do like the way you put that He is Israel, if we are His and the Spirit is dwelling within us we are Israel. We are told theres no more Jew or Greek in Him, even though we know there are gates with the names of the tribes we like Caleb will be added to those who already existed who like Abraham had faith in God, had faith the Messiah would come just as Yah promised. Its not hard to understand if we take away the last couple thousands of years of theology that separate everyone into different bodies and such, there is only one, His.

shalom,

Mizz

Now that is the truth right there. The disciples did not have any issues with Israel, the Church, or spiritual gifts because they only adhered to Christ and His teachings. Through the ages, as foretold by the disciples, man's ideas and teachings have infiltrated the Body and have caused much confusion. Only when one steps away from that will they see the truth as it is in Christ.

[Zemke]

Hi Nathan and Mizz, or any others,

Not a direct verse on spiritual gifting but I'm finding a continuing theme here.

Isaiah 53:2

For He grew up up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; .....

[Botz]

This is where people can get mixed up real easy. See, Jesus, the Christ, was and is, Israel. He is Israel. Not a nation, not a people, not a doctrine, and not a system of beliefs.

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ.

However, we know that those things that Christ taught -old and new- are the fertile soil that good fruit grows in. Therefore, whatever grows from this soil is true Israel.

I do like the way you put that He is Israel, if we are His and the Spirit is dwelling within us we are Israel. We are told theres no more Jew or Greek in Him, even though we know there are gates with the names of the tribes we like Caleb will be added to those who already existed who like Abraham had faith in God, had faith the Messiah would come just as Yah promised. Its not hard to understand if we take away the last couple thousands of years of theology that separate everyone into different bodies and such, there is only one, His.

shalom,

Mizz

Hi Mizz and others,

I don't think anyone would argue about all Believers being part of the One Body...through the unity of the Holy Spirit.

I think we have to be careful when we use that Scripture about the Jew and Greek, because there is a very definate distinction...the emphasis is not on there being no distinction...but that we are all equal in Messiah

no matter what our background, bond or free, Jew or Greek, male or female...Paul was well aware of certain advantages that belonged to the Jews and laid them out (Rom 3:1-2 and Rom 9:4)...and today as Gentiles begin to

pay more attention to their true fathers of the faith much is being uncovered and revealed that shows the wealth of understanding and revelation into the purposes of G-d that can only be accessed through

understanding the original context and not some spiritualized Gentile counterpart....nor for that matter some mystical rabbinic teaching that can be just as far removed.

I don't understand the need to spiritualize Israel....or to call the L-rd, Israel

As far as I can see, present day Israel is both the nation of Israel and in G-ds eyes every Jew in the world, it is most made up of Jews that do not yet recognise Yeshua as Messiah and those that do

but G-d purposes will be worked out amongst them, His words will come to pass and after momentous events run their course, they will turn to Him en masse.

Amongst Israel at this present time are Jewish brethren who are part of the One Body (those that have come to faith in G-d), ...some of the natural branches have been re-grafted in to their natural olive tree,

and we the non-natural branches have also been grafted to the natural olive tree in order to draw our life with them from the One L-rd....Yeshua.

I would go so far as to say that as Gentiles we cannot fully understand or make sense of our faith apart from Israel...apart from the natural olive. We are indebted.

As a final point, I have noticed how Paul is careful to make the distinction between the natural branches and the non-natural branches...not to bolster or promote one over another,

but to hone our understanding and put things in their right perspective.

[NathanH]

Hi Mizz and others,

I don't think anyone would argue about all Believers being part of the One Body...through the unity of the Holy Spirit.

I think we have to be careful when we use that Scripture about the Jew and Greek, because there is a very definate distinction...the emphasis is not on there being no distinction...but that we are all equal in Messiah

no matter what our background, bond or free, Jew or Greek, male or female...Paul was well aware of certain advantages that belonged to the Jews and laid them out (Rom 3:1-2 and Rom 9:4)...and today as Gentiles begin to

pay more attention to their true fathers of the faith much is being uncovered and revealed that shows the wealth of understanding and revelation into the purposes of G-d that can only be accessed through

understanding the original context and not some spiritualized Gentile counterpart....nor for that matter some mystical rabbinic teaching that can be just as far removed.

I don't understand the need to spiritualize Israel....or to call the L-rd, Israel

As far as I can see, present day Israel is both the nation of Israel and in G-ds eyes every Jew in the world, it is most made up of Jews that do not yet recognise Yeshua as Messiah and those that do

but G-d purposes will be worked out amongst them, His words will come to pass and after momentous events run their course, they will turn to Him en masse.

Amongst Israel at this present time are Jewish brethren who are part of the One Body (those that have come to faith in G-d), ...some of the natural branches have been re-grafted in to their natural olive tree,

and we the non-natural branches have also been grafted to the natural olive tree in order to draw our life with them from the One L-rd....Yeshua.

I would go so far as to say that as Gentiles we cannot fully understand or make sense of our faith apart from Israel...apart from the natural olive. We are indebted.

As a final point, I have noticed how Paul is careful to make the distinction between the natural branches and the non-natural branches...not to bolster or promote one over another,

but to hone our understanding and put things in their right perspective.

Yes, you are right we do have to be wise about how we keep context within context.

But at the same time we have to see the distinction of whether we are talking about spiritual matters, or we are talking about physical matters. There is a definite distinction there and it is best we make that when talking about such things that are built upon one or the other.

We must...must...see our identity in Christ when speaking of spiritual matters. If we try to identify ourselves in Christ apart from that we loose perspective. When we look at the physical things we loose 'perspective' and are but "infants in Christ".

The only thing that makes natural branches natural is the care and attention placed upon the plant at its conception. Figuratively speaking, when God formed the "plant." of "Israel" He did so in a specific way - from a wild plant.

Gen 12:1-4 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." So Abram went, as the LORD had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Then, later we know that God made His promise through the seed of Abraham. That seed referring to Christ. So, all "nations" after the seed of Abraham can inherit the promises. Which is why we can inherit the promises, those who are in that seed - Christ.

However, Abraham was not given the name Israel. See, it the "wild" plant had to be further "cared for" and "tamed". That plant was finally "tamed" in Jacob.

Gen 32:28 Then he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed."

And so it is, through this "tamed" plant that the "natural olive tree branches" were "propagated" or "tended". But we can very easiely loose sight of the big picture when we think that "natural olive tree" itself is anyone other than Christ. Branches grew from this tree.

See, in the plant makeup branches, and what grows on them, do not dictate what the actual tree is. You can graft an different tree's branches onto another tree and those branches will not necessarily produce the same fruit as the natural branches, but they share the same source of nutrients.

True Israel, the tree itself, is Christ. There are "natural" branches that have and still do produce(give physical indication of) what the tree really is. That is why the Christ had to come from the 'seed' of Abraham. Because, there was another 'seed'. Remember? A 'tree' grew from each. Which, can be real interesting to think about in the BIG picture of the Bible and all the implications that come from it.

So to boil it all down. The only reason physical 'Israel' is so is because she came from the 'seed' that was ordained by God in Abraham. But do not confuse the branches for the true tree itself. They are one, but the plant can live without the branches, however the branches cannot live apart from the tree. And branches who had not grown from a tree can be placed onto it and become 'one' with the tree.

Therefore, Jew(physical Israelites from one physical seed) as well as Gentile(those that came from other physical seeds) can be one(spiritually) in Christ(True Israel).

[NathanH]

Maybe this can also clarify it a little further;

Abraham - conception - formation

Issac - seed - plant

Jacob - offspring - branches

When you look at a seed you cannot always tell what it is. But everything that it will become is inside that seed. And when it grows it can be known by the branches, leaves, and fruit it produces.

[NathanH]

Doesn't Ro 11:24 present it as a cultivated tree from the beginning (whose roots are Abraham, Isaac, Jacob), into which

the branch from the wild tree is grafted?

Yes and no.

I did not word that phrase right. The tree is perfect from the beginning, because the tree is Christ.

What I meant to state was that Abraham was not an "Israelite". And furthermore, neither was Isaac. But yet we know and understand that God drew Abraham from the "wild" of the world. And from this "uprooting"(obedience of Abraham), the physical Israel was brought forth. Therefore, in the beginning, it was wild.

However, the "seed" of true Israel(that which is physical is temporal, that which is spiritual is eternal) was "planted" in this cultivated ground. It was a perfect seed, and produced the perfect plant.

So, I apologize for the confusion with the prior post, it was a bad choice of words.

[Botz]

To be in the one body, which is the body of Christ, is not faith in Jesus Christ required, not just faith in God?

I don't differentiate Eleanor...it goes without saying that be part of the Body of Messiah, you must know Messiah. (G-d)

The full revelation of Scripture shows you cannot come to the Father unless you go through the Son.

[Zemke]

So anyway, in Isaiah 53 the Messiah is called both a tender plant, and a root. vs.2, I found it interesting.

I believe now that with out the examples of Israels mistakes and the understanding of the expectation God had of them to bare fruit, without the knowledge of the wonderful blessing of every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, knowing that I once walked according to the course of this world, having no hope and without God in this world having been brought near by the blood of Christ, grafted in to the olive tree I could not truly grasp the necesity of the gift and fruit baring power of the Holy Spirit.

Without Jesus we can do nothing. He is the vine we are the branches, the branches produce fruit as we are in Him and He in us. Blessed is the man that loves the law of the Lord, he will be like a tree planted by the 'rivers of water' and bring forth his fruit in his season. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to the body to build the body to produce the fruit God is wanting. It's His vineyard. And yes verse 11 and 12 of 1Corinthians 10 is a warning Eleanor.

Edited February 16, 2012 by ZEMKE

[coheir]

In 1 Cor. 10 we are being warned that even though those first Israelites came out of the desert in faith that faith was weak, they saw His miracles, was part of one of the greatest miracles of all at that time and still their hearts were far from Him. Then we see the second generation that learned to trust, have faith daily, God taught them what it was like to walk in His ways just as He now does today through His Spirit. Just because we get 'saved' doesnt mean we have learned to walk correctly and thats what He shows us how to do.

My thoughts about who Israel is and the church is not a popular one here but I firmly believe we are all Israel, all who are faithful who confess His name and obey His ways. And don't we truly see that by those who walked through the Jordan, Caleb was not an Israelite yet God saw a 'diiferent' spirit one that wanted to know and obey God. I see us all much like Caleb, a Kenizzite, a gentile found worthy grafted into Judah and became someone God loved and called upon, he was grafted into Israel because of His faith. If we are walking with the Spirit guiding us we will be producing the fruits, we can call upon His Name and His power though the gifts He gives us. My take on it all.

shalom,

Mizz

Just curious are you a Gerald Flurry fan?