Do you believe in hell as an eternal torment?

[childeye]

name='NathanH' timestamp='1329426843' post='1772210']

Belief and repentance are the same thing. Its simply a matter of what a person has believed. lol

The truth? Hell, eternity, torment, burning, non-existence, etc...whatever, the truth is that life is available to those who choose a Savior who can save them and they choose Him now. Those who just want a 'savior' from hell are not going to find one.

Yes I know the point you are making. I take it that salvation is not about escaping hell but keeping our eyes on Christ, so it is you are using this thread to make your point. Another thing you also said was about repenting for the right reasons and this gave me thought, since one cannot be truly sorrowful if they simply want to escape torment. It would be like the prodigal son coming back and saying to his Father, I decided to give you another chance. On another thread someone asked me how I understood the terms repentance and salvation. This was my response:

The way I see it is that I can be sure repentance is turning around as in reversing direction. But more importantly defining what we are turning away from and turning towards would more properly define repentance. For Jesus said repent and we know to repent from our sins, but defining sin is yet problematic in some respects. I would define sin as a direction away from God while others might define it as tresspassing against the laws of God. Jesus was accused many times by the "authorities" of tresspasses, and even crucified for blaspheme yet he had no sin. Moreover Jesus spoke about the weightier matters of the law being about mercy and understanding.

Ultimately, I believe in an everlasting kingdom without corruption. And those who live there would never willingly disobey God because they were absolutely convinced that to do so would never improve their station or happiness, but would only bring pain and sorrow. Those who preach freewill therefore muddy the waters if indeed they say a man must have the freedom to disobey God to be free.

Salvation is like being healed or brought to life from the dead. I believe the death God talked about inherent in the knowledge of good and evil is the mutual destruction of one another because in self-righteousness we hypocritically condemn others for things when we all have faults that we could be accused of. By our own judgment we self destruct by annihilating one another in hypocritical judgment. That is the product of corruption and it is iniquity. Hence the willingness of Jesus who had no sin to die on a cross and his being put there by those who were the authorities and administrators of the law, is quite compelling. And yet he forgives returning good for evil and rises from the grave all the more glorious. This is appropriate for much discernment regarding our plight and how death is to be defeated.

In summary salvation is believing and being healed by the revelation of the Christ. And repentance is turning toward the Christ as the True Image of God whose Love is the Eternal Spirit. Faith that this Love will endure means you must be convinced that you also likely will suffer physical punishment and death by believing in it. For in a wicked world spiritually controlled by powers of darkness, they who are yet blind will persecute you for it, believing they are serving God.

[NathanH]

Yes I know the point you are making. I take it that salvation is not about escaping hell but keeping our eyes on Christ, so it is you are using this thread to make your point. Another thing you also said was about repenting for the right reasons and this gave me thought, since one cannot be truly sorrowful if they simply want to escape torment. It would be like the prodigal son coming back and saying to his Father, I decided to give you another chance. On another thread someone asked me how I understood the terms repentance and salvation.

I was not going to respond because there really is not anything to respond too. I assume that you are finished with the conversation.

But I did want to understand what exactly you meant by this statement. I am not trying to make 'my' point. I was answering a question posed by the OP and while this thread has taken a few turns here and there I have always tried to stay on topic.

I thought of something on the way home this evening. What you have stated is that consequences should be known. And I agree. So the difference between us is what the consequences are. My belief is that the consequences are the same for all sinners. Death is the consequence. But what got me to thinking is if you believe there are different 'levels' of consequences for sin?

To me it would seem that if its a matter of 'repayment' of the evil done or anything like that then there would have to be a direct reflection of it. So, then the one who only sinned once(very unlikely) would not have to suffer as grave of consequences as the one who sinned all their life and was as evil as the day is long. But I think you would agree that the Bible is clear there is no different 'levels'.

The teenager and the 100 year old man will suffer the same fate. I think that maybe we are getting mixed up with the first and second death. I believe that after the first death there is place called 'Hades'. And yes, I do believe there is torment in that place. I believe that is where the soul is placed until the time of the second death, the final destruction of the soul.

So maybe that is where we have common ground in our belief, but are unable to put into words. But don't get me wrong, I still do not think that it should be a main issue in presenting the Gospel. And at the same time I would not leave it out completely. However, because we know that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, second death, I will never be able to state that hell is torment for eternity.

[OneLight]

I have heard what you are saying before. It is not something new to me and I have considered it deeply.

You agree to live is to spend eternity with God, yes? In the same manner, to die is to spend eternity out of His presence. There is nothing worst then to not be in the presence of God for eternity. Yet, I asked you to show me scripture that clearly states that a spirit ceases to exist and you did not. That is because it is not there. We can read scripture and walk away with a thought, but that does not mean what we think it says is what it really says. Unless there is a difference between the lake of fire burning with brimstone and the lake of fire, both mentioned in Revelation, then the punishment will be forever.

I agree with what you say. Through love, Christ brought salvation to the lost, and not through fear.

Yet, that did not answer the questions I posed. Nobody knows the love of God until they have accepted Christ Jesus as their savior. They may consider the difference, but that does not mean they understand. If you approached a sinner about God and told them that they either can live forever with God or continue to enjoy every lust known to man and cease to exist after they physically die, how would you compare that being with God forever is better when you have nothing to compare it to? There is always something to compare it to, and to be no more is not something at all, but a relief to those who are concerned with the afterlife. Hot has cold, good has bad, day has night, up has down; there is always something opposite. The opposite is to either be with God or to not be with God. The opposite is not to cease to exist. Man would consider your idea as the best resolution, for sin would not have any consequences at all for the consequence is to just cease to exist, where nobody would know or feel a thing. Just POOF and you are gone. That is why this teaching is so dangerous.

What consequences is there then, if life does not exist for sinners after death? You do not make this clear enough. If, as you say, " there is not life in that hell, and that the soul and body are both destroyed there", then tell me, what consequences is there?

You claim that God gave us something to compare eternity with Him against that is not real. That is like saying God has to make things up in order to get us to turn to Him. That, my friend, is a bold face lie. God does not have to use trickery or fables. Everything God has created has an opposite.

As I said, I have considered your side of the argument long and hard and found it lacking.

I hope you don't mind, but I get lost in the multiple quote thing. I would like to respond with three parts instead.

#1 - The scripture that clearly states it is the same scripture you are stating does not. I cannot convince you, or point anything new out. To destroy something is to destroy something. Something that is dead, is dead. It is the opposite of alive.

Lets define the word "exist". If you take a piece of paper and burn it, does it still exist? Existing is to "have real being, whether physical or spiritual"; "to continue to be"; "to have life or the functions of vitality".

Death is a cessation of existing. When a person, physical human dies, do they exist here on earth anymore? Their body does for a while, right? Until it goes decomposes and turns back into that which it was to begin with.

Death is to not exist. Adam and Eve died the very day they disobeyed. Right? But they were still alive physically, and they still had a soul. So what died? Their spirit. Their spirit ceased to exist.

Now I know that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable depending on who your talking to. Each one has a different opinion of each. Please don't get lost in the words, but rather look at the full picture.

You cannot intertwine the spiritual with the physical like you are trying to do here. Yes, the physical body ceases to exist in the same form it was when it was alive, but the spirit lives. You are looking at spiritual death the same way you are physical death and that is wrong. The spirit goes on, either to be with God or to not be with God, but it does continue.

#2 - I think that you answer your own question and are fighting against your own thoughts. "heat - cold", "up - down", "in - out", "light - dark", "good - bad", and yes "life - death", "existence - non-existence". There is no way around it. It is the truth. The only way it could be possible is if God gave eternal life to those who He was going to punish. But you will never find that, but always find the opposite of that.

Existence and non-existence, in the physical realm is exactly what you say it is, but when God speaks of life without Him in the next life, He never tells us it will not exist. Again, you cannot take the physical and make it spiritual. These are two different realms.

#3 - The consequence is death. Humans are created to live. That is why we do not think about each breath we take, and we do not think about each heart beat our heart makes. To consider eternal death is quite enough. I will not lie. Eternal torment does sound worse than eternal death. But we are not to try to persuade people based upon earthly physical matters, the feeling of torment. For if that is so, then when persuaded they will only think of that which is physical. They have no desire for a savior from sin, just a savior from the punishment of sin.

I disagree. Christ spoke of it many times. The Apostles spoke of it also. The problem is that you are trying to merge the physical meaning into a spiritual meaning and that does not work. When Jesus spoke of outer darkness, gnashing of teeth, weeping, wailing, and seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, these are all things one does when they exist, spiritually alive. I could point out the definition of spiritual death, but I will leave that up to you to review due to the length of the subject..

This is where the professing believers are today. The ones who desired a savior from punishment are quite content in their 'position' of not having to 'suffer' in hell. All the while making excuses after excuses for the sin they live in. Where as the ones who desired a savior from sin, are the ones who walk in the light and live lives pleasing to God.

I have not head anyone try to excuse their sin. They do confess their sins and continue to fight against the flesh, just like the Apostles did. There is not one sinless man outside of Christ that ever lived.

1 John 1:8-10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us

You can call me anything you like. You can say I do whatever you like. But I have not called God a lier, nor have I indicated that He has to 'make something up'. He did give us something to compare eternity with Him against, and that is eternity away from Him. In Him is life. Without Him is death.

First, I never called you anything, so no need to play a martyr. I did claim that your teaching is like claiming God needed to create a means to trick someone into accepting Him and not a life in "hell" if life in "hell" was not true, and I stand by that.

Allow me to bring you your words that I speak of.

What I believe is that while it is easy to 'think' that someone could care less about how they live in this "life", because they will just 'cease' to exist,

that the fact is God has put "eternity" into the heart of man.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

And because He has put that there, man's desire is going to revolve around that in a sense. In other words, the thought of eternal death and punishment, is something that can only be contrasted with eternal life. The thought of eternal death and punishment, the cessation of life, is simply not appealing to creatures designed to live. And that is what we have to wrap our minds around, to the degree we are given the ability.

I read this as if you are claiming that God needed to create the thought of eternity only to persuade us to choose being with Him, that eternity without Him is not true. I say that He created eternity to inform us that we will either live with Him or live without Him.

People can continue to 'turn' people toward God with anything they want. But what it will not do is turn them away from their sin. And until someone turns away from their sin, they CANNOT turn to God. That is repentance at it's simplest definition.

Repentance is not a turning away from what you do not want to experience, future tense. Rather, repentance is turning away from something, present tense.

And I can claim without a shadow of a doubt that until someone repents they cannot believe. And that, friends, is what Jesus and His disciples preached - repentance.

I agree, but this is not the point I was making. If sinners ceases to exist after they die, they would have no reason to change in their eyes because they would have nothing to worry about. They are not concerned about a life that does not exist, so they will continue to indulge in the vast lusts of the flesh until they die. Only the Holy Spirit can convict them of sin, bringing back to them the words of God we speak to them in truth. If one does not warn them against the lake of fire and its torment that lasts forever, then we fail to bring them the full truth.

[He giveth more grace]

And I can claim without a shadow of a doubt that until someone repents they cannot believe. And that, friends, is what Jesus and His disciples preached - repentance

.Repentance has nothing to do with salvation! Repent of what, being lost, it doesn't work like that. Of sins, Sinners don't repent of sins, Christians do. The depraved person doesn't have the Holy Spirit - he can't truely repent. Through man's pride he trys to make himself part of salvation, the sinner's prayer is all wrong that says, forgive me of my sins. What else is wrong is, Jesus come into my heart. MHO

Calling for back-up.

[childeye]

name='NathanH' timestamp='1329438388' post='1772252']

But I did want to understand what exactly you meant by this statement. I am not trying to make 'my' point. I was answering a question posed by the OP and while this thread has taken a few turns here and there I have always tried to stay on topic.

I assume everyone is trying to make apoint when answering the question on the op. I surely did not mean to give the impression that you were off topic.

I thought of something on the way home this evening. What you have stated is that consequences should be known. And I agree.

I feel from this statement you misunderstand something I have said. I never said that as I recall, perhaps you're paraphrasing something?I'm not sure what you mean by consequences should be shown.

So the difference between us is what the consequences are. My belief is that the consequences are the same for all sinners. Death is the consequence. But what got me to thinking is if you believe there are different 'levels' of consequences for sin?To me it would seem that if its a matter of 'repayment' of the evil done or anything like that then there would have to be a direct reflection of it. So, then the one who only sinned once(very unlikely) would not have to suffer as grave of consequences as the one who sinned all their life and was as evil as the day is long. But I think you would agree that the Bible is clear there is no different 'levels'.

I read on another post, a man said that sin punishes the man by it's own consequences beginning in this lifetime. A good parable on this subject is about the prostitute who cried on the feet of Jesus. Jesus said those who were forgiven much loved much while those who were forgiven little loved God little.

So maybe that is where we have common ground in our belief, but are unable to put into words. But don't get me wrong, I still do not think that it should be a main issue in presenting the Gospel. And at the same time I would not leave it out completely. However, because we know that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, second death, I will never be able to state that hell is torment for eternity.

I havn't noticed any uncommon ground. Could you elaborate?

[NathanH]

And I can claim without a shadow of a doubt that until someone repents they cannot believe. And that, friends, is what Jesus and His disciples preached - repentance

.Repentance has nothing to do with salvation! Repent of what, being lost, it doesn't work like that. Of sins, Sinners don't repent of sins, Christians do. The depraved person doesn't have the Holy Spirit - he can't truely repent. Through man's pride he trys to make himself part of salvation, the sinner's prayer is all wrong that says, forgive me of my sins. What else is wrong is, Jesus come into my heart. MHO

Calling for back-up.

Back up has arrived!!!..... lol. Just playing a little.

But to be serious, this is a whole different topic. I brought it into discussion to help clarify my beliefs about hell and eternal torment. However, it is a "worthy" topic and is quite interesting to discuss. Maybe you could start another thread. If you do, I would be more than willing to engage in conversation.

[NathanH]

You cannot intertwine the spiritual with the physical like you are trying to do here. Yes, the physical body ceases to exist in the same form it was when it was alive, but the spirit lives. You are looking at spiritual death the same way you are physical death and that is wrong. The spirit goes on, either to be with God or to not be with God, but it does continue.

Existence and non-existence, in the physical realm is exactly what you say it is, but when God speaks of life without Him in the next life, He never tells us it will not exist. Again, you cannot take the physical and make it spiritual. These are two different realms.

I disagree. Christ spoke of it many times. The Apostles spoke of it also. The problem is that you are trying to merge the physical meaning into a spiritual meaning and that does not work. When Jesus spoke of outer darkness, gnashing of teeth, weeping, wailing, and seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, these are all things one does when they exist, spiritually alive. I could point out the definition of spiritual death, but I will leave that up to you to review due to the length of the subject..

I have not head anyone try to excuse their sin. They do confess their sins and continue to fight against the flesh, just like the Apostles did. There is not one sinless man outside of Christ that ever lived.

1 John 1:8-10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us

First, I never called you anything, so no need to play a martyr. I did claim that your teaching is like claiming God needed to create a means to trick someone into accepting Him and not a life in "hell" if life in "hell" was not true, and I stand by that.

Allow me to bring you your words that I speak of.

What I believe is that while it is easy to 'think' that someone could care less about how they live in this "life", because they will just 'cease' to exist,

that the fact is God has put "eternity" into the heart of man.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

And because He has put that there, man's desire is going to revolve around that in a sense. In other words, the thought of eternal death and punishment, is something that can only be contrasted with eternal life. The thought of eternal death and punishment, the cessation of life, is simply not appealing to creatures designed to live. And that is what we have to wrap our minds around, to the degree we are given the ability.

I read this as if you are claiming that God needed to create the thought of eternity only to persuade us to choose being with Him, that eternity without Him is not true. I say that He created eternity to inform us that we will either live with Him or live without Him.

I agree, but this is not the point I was making. If sinners ceases to exist after they die, they would have no reason to change in their eyes because they would have nothing to worry about. They are not concerned about a life that does not exist, so they will continue to indulge in the vast lusts of the flesh until they die. Only the Holy Spirit can convict them of sin, bringing back to them the words of God we speak to them in truth. If one does not warn them against the lake of fire and its torment that lasts forever, then we fail to bring them the full truth.

I feel from this statement you misunderstand something I have said. I never said that as I recall, perhaps you're paraphrasing something?I'm not sure what you mean by consequences should be shown.

I read on another post, a man said that sin punishes the man by it's own consequences beginning in this lifetime. A good parable on this subject is about the prostitute who cried on the feet of Jesus. Jesus said those who were forgiven much loved much while those who were forgiven little loved God little.

I havn't noticed any uncommon ground. Could you elaborate?

Lol. I think that there is not much to be said that has not been said already. To continue will be unfair to the topic of the thread. Obviously this has gone past the original intent and into personality conflict. After this post I will not venture into this thread again. But I am completely open to personal conversations.

One last thought that sums up the rest of the posts I have made. It revolves around your statement;

If sinners ceases to exist after they die, they would have no reason to change in their eyes because they would have nothing to worry about. They are not concerned about a life that does not exist, so they will continue to indulge in the vast lusts of the flesh until they die.

Sinners have plenty to worry about. In fact, while sinners may portray an outward appearance(physical) of being nonchalant, their soul(spiritual) is anything but at peace. They can, and do, try and remove that 'feeling' - but it never goes away. Sometimes we as believers forget what it felt like to be 'lost'. And there is a good reason why the Bible calls them 'lost'.

Eph 2:11-12 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands--remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Sinners will continue to indulge regardless of anything else. Lets use the person who does believe in eternal torment for example. Lets say this person is a believer in Christ. Lets say he is a "Christian". Is this person ever going to sin again while alive on this earth? Does his belief in eternal torment for the lost not break him to the point of sickening disgust of what sin does to a person?

Sinners have no hope. They have no direction. Belief or disbelief in eternal torment is not the deciding factor for them. Hope, peace, and life will be what changes them. No one here knows what hell is like for an absolute, and no one here knows how one 'exists' there, because no one having gone there ever returns. But what we can do is what Paul did;

Act 24:24-25 After some days Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, and he sent for Paul and heard him speak about faith in Christ Jesus. And as he reasoned about righteousness and self-control and the coming judgment, Felix was alarmed and said, "Go away for the present. When I get an opportunity I will summon you."

There is a coming judgment when all will be judged. The righteous will go on to eternal life and the unrighteous to eternal death. Its as simple as that. Persuasion based upon the physical nature of pain and suffering is trying to intertwine the physical and the spiritual. And when we do that we loose perspective of both. Because, as you have stated yourself, they cannot be 'mixed' together, they are different realms.

Edited February 19, 2012 by OneLight
Split the quote since I did not make some of those statements.

[childeye]

And I can claim without a shadow of a doubt that until someone repents they cannot believe. And that, friends, is what Jesus and His disciples preached - repentance

.Repentance has nothing to do with salvation! Repent of what, being lost, it doesn't work like that. Of sins, Sinners don't repent of sins, Christians do. The depraved person doesn't have the Holy Spirit - he can't truely repent. Through man's pride he trys to make himself part of salvation, the sinner's prayer is all wrong that says, forgive me of my sins. What else is wrong is, Jesus come into my heart. MHO

Calling for back-up.

What you say makes perfect sense to me although I do not know what the sinners prayer says exactly, so I can't comment on that.

[silviawang]

The righteousness will go to GOD’s kingdom

And the unbelievers will go to a place there will be no GOD forever

Just on this plant, there are some place whose god is GOD,

and some place , whose god is not GOD

This plant ,is a shadow ,a testimony of GOD, and also a place GOD want human being experiencing and understanding sth.

-------just as the Israelites is the testimony that GOD implying clearly to us that JESUS is the Messiah

[silviawang]

And ,y really can not image that how evil the man can be without the true sighting,the hell is in a place full of fire,and also in the heart of humanbeing