Do you believe in hell as an eternal torment?

[NathanH]

Mark 9:42-48 repeatedly states that "Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.", which is from Isaiah 66:24. He is talking about unbelievers here.

Isa 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

This states that they will see the dead "bodies". If you destroy something, it is forever in that state of destruction. Therefore, the worm shall not die, and the fire shall not be quenched is a statement to the eternal nature of the destruction.

This passage gives no indication that the man or woman who never is born again will live eternally in hell. You will not find any, any, passages that state a man or woman without Christ will receive the ability to live eternally - no matter the state they are in.

Rev 20:10-15 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The first death is that of physical death. The second death is that of the soul.

Think of it this way. The first death kills the body, in other words, the body is "destroyed". Right? This even happens to believers. Our bodies are destroyed when we die. They are sinful. And destruction means it is no more. Gone. Obliterated.

The second death, second destruction, is only for those who are not in Christ. This is the destruction of the entire 'kit and caboodle'. It only happens to those who's names are not written in the book of...life...

Eternal death is just that, eternal...death. It is a state of death that will be forever and ever. Eternal punishment is just that, eternal...punishment. It is a state of being punished(suffering the consequences of their choice) forever and ever.

What you have to do is contrast eternal death with eternal life. Then it makes a little more sense because that is exactly what it is.

[childeye]

Well, I would almost stay out of this one, but I have strong beliefs in this department.

I believe the soul of the un-believer is destroyed. I believe it is an eternal destruction. But I find no where that it is eternal life in hell.

There are two categories. Those who are in Christ and 'inherit' eternal life, and those who are found outside of Christ and do not receive eternal life.

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Man is "Body, Soul, and Spirit". The spirit of man is dead, does not exist, until the Spirit of God give it life. This is called the "new birth". So, Jesus was not speaking hypothetically here when He says "both soul and body". The spirit, the 'eternal' part of man is not existent apart from the new birth.

Now, just on a very basic level; what does "destroy" mean? If I "destroyed" a piece of paper, is it still a piece of paper? If I "destroy" my car, is it still a car?

The fact of the matter is that the eternal aspect of it is that it is 'irreversible'. Once a person is destroyed in hell, they are gone. Its a done deal. But they do not live there eternally, because everything they are is destroyed.

You make a good point. We see as only through a dark glass. It is enough that we recognize the second death is undesirable.

[OneLight]

Mark 9:42-48 repeatedly states that "Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.", which is from Isaiah 66:24. He is talking about unbelievers here.

Isa 66:22-24 "For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

This states that they will see the dead "bodies". If you destroy something, it is forever in that state of destruction. Therefore, the worm shall not die, and the fire shall not be quenched is a statement to the eternal nature of the destruction.

This passage gives no indication that the man or woman who never is born again will live eternally in hell. You will not find any, any, passages that state a man or woman without Christ will receive the ability to live eternally - no matter the state they are in.

Rev 20:10-15 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The first death is that of physical death. The second death is that of the soul.

Think of it this way. The first death kills the body, in other words, the body is "destroyed". Right? This even happens to believers. Our bodies are destroyed when we die. They are sinful. And destruction means it is no more. Gone. Obliterated.

The second death, second destruction, is only for those who are not in Christ. This is the destruction of the entire 'kit and caboodle'. It only happens to those who's names are not written in the book of...life...

Eternal death is just that, eternal...death. It is a state of death that will be forever and ever. Eternal punishment is just that, eternal...punishment. It is a state of being punished(suffering the consequences of their choice) forever and ever.

What you have to do is contrast eternal death with eternal life. Then it makes a little more sense because that is exactly what it is.

Everything that points to eternal death never talks about the person who receives it just disappearing from existence. We never are told that a spirit just ceases to exist. That is a very dangerous position to take, my friend.

What reason would anyone have to turn from their sin if what you say is true? They could live a lustful life of every type of pleasure known to man, enjoy their life on earth, and just cease to exist, exactly they way atheist believe. Yet, all through scripture we are told just the opposite. What will happen to you as you convince people to accept what you say as true, neglect living for God for they will not receive any real judgment, but find themselves standing in judgment for eternity? How will you explain this since we are going to be held accountable for every word we speak?

I have spoken to others who claim that God would never be so cruel as to allow His creation to suffer forever. To me, they take the scripture out of context and twist what they read to fit their idea fo what they hope the afterlife will be.

Sorry, but I could never agree with your idea of the spirits of sinners just ceasing to exist.

[NathanH]

Everything that points to eternal death never talks about the person who receives it just disappearing from existence. We never are told that a spirit just ceases to exist. That is a very dangerous position to take, my friend.

What reason would anyone have to turn from their sin if what you say is true? They could live a lustful life of every type of pleasure known to man, enjoy their life on earth, and just cease to exist, exactly they way atheist believe. Yet, all through scripture we are told just the opposite. What will happen to you as you convince people to accept what you say as true, neglect living for God for they will not receive any real judgment, but find themselves standing in judgment for eternity? How will you explain this since we are going to be held accountable for every word we speak?

I have spoken to others who claim that God would never be so cruel as to allow His creation to suffer forever. To me, they take the scripture out of context and twist what they read to fit their idea fo what they hope the afterlife will be.

Sorry, but I could never agree with your idea of the spirits of sinners just ceasing to exist.

There are two things I would like to point out in regards to the above post.

#1 - All it takes is a look back to the first book of the Bible to see that the very idea of death, complete death, was used in the original deception of Adam and Eve.

Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God did not lie, period. However...

Gen 3:1-4 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

Satan lied, period.

So tell me. Did they or did they not die? Let me answer my own question, they did die. But we do not have the complete understanding of the totality of their death. We will never have it because we are not like God...another lie of Satan.

Obviously Adam and Eve did not 'disappear' from existence. But they did die. Their spirit died. What God said would happen, happened.

Let me pose another question. How can you live in death? How can something exist that is dead?

#2 - The reason people turn from their sin is not because of fear, but because of love.

When Jesus spoke to sinners it was in a manner of offering them peace from weariness.

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

When Jesus spoke about hell and eternal punishment He was doing so to those who had the notion in their head that they were going to live eternally because of their righteousness. It does not negate the fact that there is a hell, and there is eternal punishment. However, Jesus did not call the masses to Himself through fear, but out of love. People turn from their sin when they realize there is nothing they can do to 'make up for it'. It cannot be fear of death, or punishment, because the man or woman without Christ is already dead.

Now, I will agree with you that it does seem counter intuitive with the whole "live like nothing else matters because we will just die, cease to exist" mentality. But ponder on this for a moment;

Adam and Eve were alive at one point. They knew exactly what God said to them, but obviously they did not believe it to be true or they just did not care. Who knows for sure. So in all actuality they simply believed what they wanted to believe, without serious regard to what 'could/will' happen.

The atheist and every other unbeliever is going to believe what they want regardless. It is not till the Spirit of God comes to a person and convicts them of their sin, and the consequences, that they will believe. And the Spirit of God is not going to lie to that individual. So what we(you and I) believe about hell and the life their-in, really has no forbearance on the situation.

Let me clarify that last statement. It is up to us to tell the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. And that is what we will be judged on. I have never stated, and never will, that there is not eternal punishment or that there is not a hell. There is. No doubt in my mind.

But what I do state is that there is not life in that hell, and that the soul and body are both destroyed there.

What I believe is that while it is easy to 'think' that someone could care less about how they live in this "life", because they will just 'cease' to exist, that the fact is God has put "eternity" into the heart of man.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

And because He has put that there, man's desire is going to revolve around that in a sense. In other words, the thought of eternal death and punishment, is something that can only be contrasted with eternal life. The thought of eternal death and punishment, the cessation of life, is simply not appealing to creatures designed to live. And that is what we have to wrap our minds around, to the degree we are given the ability.

Mankind, no matter who he is, wants to live forever. It has nothing to do with bad things happening to them, but rather the inability to live.

The use of eternal "heat and torment" to win someone to belief in Christ is simply not the way He did it nor the way He taught His disciples. If you would not mind, I would like to see some examples of it if you have the time.

[childeye]

Everything that points to eternal death never talks about the person who receives it just disappearing from existence. We never are told that a spirit just ceases to exist. That is a very dangerous position to take, my friend.

What reason would anyone have to turn from their sin if what you say is true? They could live a lustful life of every type of pleasure known to man, enjoy their life on earth, and just cease to exist, exactly they way atheist believe. Yet, all through scripture we are told just the opposite. What will happen to you as you convince people to accept what you say as true, neglect living for God for they will not receive any real judgment, but find themselves standing in judgment for eternity? How will you explain this since we are going to be held accountable for every word we speak?

I have spoken to others who claim that God would never be so cruel as to allow His creation to suffer forever. To me, they take the scripture out of context and twist what they read to fit their idea fo what they hope the afterlife will be.

Sorry, but I could never agree with your idea of the spirits of sinners just ceasing to exist.

There are two things I would like to point out in regards to the above post.

#1 - All it takes is a look back to the first book of the Bible to see that the very idea of death, complete death, was used in the original deception of Adam and Eve.

Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God did not lie, period. However...

Gen 3:1-4 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

Satan lied, period.

So tell me. Did they or did they not die? Let me answer my own question, they did die. But we do not have the complete understanding of the totality of their death. We will never have it because we are not like God...another lie of Satan.

Obviously Adam and Eve did not 'disappear' from existence. But they did die. Their spirit died. What God said would happen, happened.

Let me pose another question. How can you live in death? How can something exist that is dead?

#2 - The reason people turn from their sin is not because of fear, but because of love.

When Jesus spoke to sinners it was in a manner of offering them peace from weariness.

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

When Jesus spoke about hell and eternal punishment He was doing so to those who had the notion in their head that they were going to live eternally because of their righteousness. It does not negate the fact that there is a hell, and there is eternal punishment. However, Jesus did not call the masses to Himself through fear, but out of love. People turn from their sin when they realize there is nothing they can do to 'make up for it'. It cannot be fear of death, or punishment, because the man or woman without Christ is already dead.

Now, I will agree with you that it does seem counter intuitive with the whole "live like nothing else matters because we will just die, cease to exist" mentality. But ponder on this for a moment;

Adam and Eve were alive at one point. They knew exactly what God said to them, but obviously they did not believe it to be true or they just did not care. Who knows for sure. So in all actuality they simply believed what they wanted to believe, without serious regard to what 'could/will' happen.

The atheist and every other unbeliever is going to believe what they want regardless. It is not till the Spirit of God comes to a person and convicts them of their sin, and the consequences, that they will believe. And the Spirit of God is not going to lie to that individual. So what we(you and I) believe about hell and the life their-in, really has no forbearance on the situation.

Let me clarify that last statement. It is up to us to tell the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. And that is what we will be judged on. I have never stated, and never will, that there is not eternal punishment or that there is not a hell. There is. No doubt in my mind.

But what I do state is that there is not life in that hell, and that the soul and body are both destroyed there.

What I believe is that while it is easy to 'think' that someone could care less about how they live in this "life", because they will just 'cease' to exist, that the fact is God has put "eternity" into the heart of man.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

And because He has put that there, man's desire is going to revolve around that in a sense. In other words, the thought of eternal death and punishment, is something that can only be contrasted with eternal life. The thought of eternal death and punishment, the cessation of life, is simply not appealing to creatures designed to live. And that is what we have to wrap our minds around, to the degree we are given the ability.

Mankind, no matter who he is, wants to live forever. It has nothing to do with bad things happening to them, but rather the inability to live.

The use of eternal "heat and torment" to win someone to belief in Christ is simply not the way He did it nor the way He taught His disciples. If you would not mind, I would like to see some examples of it if you have the time.

I liked your post. Certainly defining death is at issue. It surely can be said Jesus came preaching to the dead in the sense that his words are life and his view is from eternity. That's why words are often riddles for us, because the death God was talking about in the Garden of Eden may have not even been the death Satan was talking about.

You make a point about us not being like God which is true in one sense and not in another. Words always tend to do the speaker injustice by the time they reach the listener. Or is it the listener who has been done injustice? It's no ones fault. Words like eternal death and eternal life only convey perpetual directions that are in direct contrast. Perhaps the death God is talking about is we would destroy each other through self-righteousness and distrust. I probably have said nothing here to bring clarification.

[NathanH]

I liked your post. Certainly defining death is at issue. It surely can be said Jesus came preaching to the dead in the sense that his words are life and his view is from eternity. That's why words are often riddles for us, because the death God was talking about in the Garden of Eden may have not even been the death Satan was talking about.

You make a point about us not being like God which is true in one sense and not in another. Words always tend to do the speaker injustice by the time they reach the listener. Or is it the listener who has been done injustice? It's no ones fault. Words like eternal death and eternal life only convey perpetual directions that are in direct contrast. Perhaps the death God is talking about is we would destroy each other through self-righteousness and distrust. I probably have said nothing here to bring clarification.

Thats just it, words are only as meaningful as the one listening gives it.

I do not believe what I do because I think God would be "mean" if He tormented a sinner forever. That argument could be made about everything within the Bible. Why sin in the first place? And why hell in the last place?

"perpetual directions", precisely. We have no idea of either of them. What we do know is that it is a fixed direction based upon the word "eternal".

Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

This text defines the "fixed" nature of it, but at the same time defines the 1st death. And if the 1st death is fixed, then so is the second. Here is another way of looking at things. Why two deaths? Is one not good enough? Is death not...death?

The 1st death refers to the death of the physical body. The second death refers to the one of the soul. But you ask, "what about the spirit"? For a sinner, it is already dead. Something cannot die if it is dead already.

In the end, who knows exactly what will happen. We can speculate, but will never know. However, I will refuse to try to "convince" someone to believe in Jesus by means of scaring them of burning alive forever. I simply do not see that as being the way Jesus talked with people about their sin.

I once heard it put this way. People who are dead in their sins are going through a 'hell' of sorts in the present tense. No, I do not think that its the hell referred to in the Bible, but they are still in misery. They are separated from God. For a creature created by Him, that is very miserable.

If those people are not going to be swayed by the preaching of good news about a savior who will save you from the sin your in, present tense, then why would they be concerned about a savior who would save them from their sins for eternity, future tense?

However, if then we scare them past the point of seeing the sin their in now, to the eternal sin, then what they do is seek a way out, not the way out. They have not believed because of their sin, but they have believed because of their fear.

Edited February 16, 2012 by NathanH

[OneLight]

Everything that points to eternal death never talks about the person who receives it just disappearing from existence. We never are told that a spirit just ceases to exist. That is a very dangerous position to take, my friend.

What reason would anyone have to turn from their sin if what you say is true? They could live a lustful life of every type of pleasure known to man, enjoy their life on earth, and just cease to exist, exactly they way atheist believe. Yet, all through scripture we are told just the opposite. What will happen to you as you convince people to accept what you say as true, neglect living for God for they will not receive any real judgment, but find themselves standing in judgment for eternity? How will you explain this since we are going to be held accountable for every word we speak?

I have spoken to others who claim that God would never be so cruel as to allow His creation to suffer forever. To me, they take the scripture out of context and twist what they read to fit their idea of what they hope the afterlife will be.

Sorry, but I could never agree with your idea of the spirits of sinners just ceasing to exist.

There are two things I would like to point out in regards to the above post.

#1 - All it takes is a look back to the first book of the Bible to see that the very idea of death, complete death, was used in the original deception of Adam and Eve.

Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God did not lie, period. However...

Gen 3:1-4 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God actually say, 'You shall not eat of any tree in the garden'?" And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'" But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

Satan lied, period.

So tell me. Did they or did they not die? Let me answer my own question, they did die. But we do not have the complete understanding of the totality of their death. We will never have it because we are not like God...another lie of Satan.

Obviously Adam and Eve did not 'disappear' from existence. But they did die. Their spirit died. What God said would happen, happened.

Let me pose another question. How can you live in death? How can something exist that is dead?

I have heard what you are saying before. It is not something new to me and I have considered it deeply.

You agree to live is to spend eternity with God, yes? In the same manner, to die is to spend eternity out of His presence. There is nothing worst then to not be in the presence of God for eternity. Yet, I asked you to show me scripture that clearly states that a spirit ceases to exist and you did not. That is because it is not there. We can read scripture and walk away with a thought, but that does not mean what we think it says is what it really says. Unless there is a difference between the lake of fire burning with brimstone and the lake of fire, both mentioned in Revelation, then the punishment will be forever.

#2 - The reason people turn from their sin is not because of fear, but because of love.

When Jesus spoke to sinners it was in a manner of offering them peace from weariness.

Mat 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

When Jesus spoke about hell and eternal punishment He was doing so to those who had the notion in their head that they were going to live eternally because of their righteousness. It does not negate the fact that there is a hell, and there is eternal punishment. However, Jesus did not call the masses to Himself through fear, but out of love. People turn from their sin when they realize there is nothing they can do to 'make up for it'. It cannot be fear of death, or punishment, because the man or woman without Christ is already dead.

I agree with what you say. Through love, Christ brought salvation to the lost, and not through fear.

Yet, that did not answer the questions I posed. Nobody knows the love of God until they have accepted Christ Jesus as their savior. They may consider the difference, but that does not mean they understand. If you approached a sinner about God and told them that they either can live forever with God or continue to enjoy every lust known to man and cease to exist after they physically die, how would you compare that being with God forever is better when you have nothing to compare it to? There is always something to compare it to, and to be no more is not something at all, but a relief to those who are concerned with the afterlife. Hot has cold, good has bad, day has night, up has down; there is always something opposite. The opposite is to either be with God or to not be with God. The opposite is not to cease to exist. Man would consider your idea as the best resolution, for sin would not have any consequences at all for the consequence is to just cease to exist, where nobody would know or feel a thing. Just POOF and you are gone. That is why this teaching is so dangerous.

Now, I will agree with you that it does seem counter intuitive with the whole "live like nothing else matters because we will just die, cease to exist" mentality. But ponder on this for a moment;

Adam and Eve were alive at one point. They knew exactly what God said to them, but obviously they did not believe it to be true or they just did not care. Who knows for sure. So in all actuality they simply believed what they wanted to believe, without serious regard to what 'could/will' happen.

The atheist and every other unbeliever is going to believe what they want regardless. It is not till the Spirit of God comes to a person and convicts them of their sin, and the consequences, that they will believe. And the Spirit of God is not going to lie to that individual. So what we(you and I) believe about hell and the life their-in, really has no forbearance on the situation.

Let me clarify that last statement. It is up to us to tell the truth. Nothing more, nothing less. And that is what we will be judged on. I have never stated, and never will, that there is not eternal punishment or that there is not a hell. There is. No doubt in my mind.

But what I do state is that there is not life in that hell, and that the soul and body are both destroyed there.

What I believe is that while it is easy to 'think' that someone could care less about how they live in this "life", because they will just 'cease' to exist, that the fact is God has put "eternity" into the heart of man.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.

And because He has put that there, man's desire is going to revolve around that in a sense. In other words, the thought of eternal death and punishment, is something that can only be contrasted with eternal life. The thought of eternal death and punishment, the cessation of life, is simply not appealing to creatures designed to live. And that is what we have to wrap our minds around, to the degree we are given the ability.

Mankind, no matter who he is, wants to live forever. It has nothing to do with bad things happening to them, but rather the inability to live.

The use of eternal "heat and torment" to win someone to belief in Christ is simply not the way He did it nor the way He taught His disciples. If you would not mind, I would like to see some examples of it if you have the time.

What consequences is there then, if life does not exist for sinners after death? You do not make this clear enough. If, as you say, " there is not life in that hell, and that the soul and body are both destroyed there", then tell me, what consequences is there?

You claim that God gave us something to compare eternity with Him against that is not real. That is like saying God has to make things up in order to get us to turn to Him. That, my friend, is a bold face lie. God does not have to use trickery or fables. Everything God has created has an opposite.

As I said, I have considered your side of the argument long and hard and found it lacking.

[NathanH]

I have heard what you are saying before. It is not something new to me and I have considered it deeply.

You agree to live is to spend eternity with God, yes? In the same manner, to die is to spend eternity out of His presence. There is nothing worst then to not be in the presence of God for eternity. Yet, I asked you to show me scripture that clearly states that a spirit ceases to exist and you did not. That is because it is not there. We can read scripture and walk away with a thought, but that does not mean what we think it says is what it really says. Unless there is a difference between the lake of fire burning with brimstone and the lake of fire, both mentioned in Revelation, then the punishment will be forever.

I agree with what you say. Through love, Christ brought salvation to the lost, and not through fear.

Yet, that did not answer the questions I posed. Nobody knows the love of God until they have accepted Christ Jesus as their savior. They may consider the difference, but that does not mean they understand. If you approached a sinner about God and told them that they either can live forever with God or continue to enjoy every lust known to man and cease to exist after they physically die, how would you compare that being with God forever is better when you have nothing to compare it to? There is always something to compare it to, and to be no more is not something at all, but a relief to those who are concerned with the afterlife. Hot has cold, good has bad, day has night, up has down; there is always something opposite. The opposite is to either be with God or to not be with God. The opposite is not to cease to exist. Man would consider your idea as the best resolution, for sin would not have any consequences at all for the consequence is to just cease to exist, where nobody would know or feel a thing. Just POOF and you are gone. That is why this teaching is so dangerous.

What consequences is there then, if life does not exist for sinners after death? You do not make this clear enough. If, as you say, " there is not life in that hell, and that the soul and body are both destroyed there", then tell me, what consequences is there?

You claim that God gave us something to compare eternity with Him against that is not real. That is like saying God has to make things up in order to get us to turn to Him. That, my friend, is a bold face lie. God does not have to use trickery or fables. Everything God has created has an opposite.

As I said, I have considered your side of the argument long and hard and found it lacking.

I hope you don't mind, but I get lost in the multiple quote thing. I would like to respond with three parts instead.

#1 - The scripture that clearly states it is the same scripture you are stating does not. I cannot convince you, or point anything new out. To destroy something is to destroy something. Something that is dead, is dead. It is the opposite of alive.

Lets define the word "exist". If you take a piece of paper and burn it, does it still exist? Existing is to "have real being, whether physical or spiritual"; "to continue to be"; "to have life or the functions of vitality".

Death is a cessation of existing. When a person, physical human dies, do they exist here on earth anymore? Their body does for a while, right? Until it goes decomposes and turns back into that which it was to begin with.

Death is to not exist. Adam and Eve died the very day they disobeyed. Right? But they were still alive physically, and they still had a soul. So what died? Their spirit. Their spirit ceased to exist.

Now I know that "soul" and "spirit" are interchangeable depending on who your talking to. Each one has a different opinion of each. Please don't get lost in the words, but rather look at the full picture.

#2 - I think that you answer your own question and are fighting against your own thoughts. "heat - cold", "up - down", "in - out", "light - dark", "good - bad", and yes "life - death", "existence - non-existence". There is no way around it. It is the truth. The only way it could be possible is if God gave eternal life to those who He was going to punish. But you will never find that, but always find the opposite of that.

#3 - The consequence is death. Humans are created to live. That is why we do not think about each breath we take, and we do not think about each heart beat our heart makes. To consider eternal death is quite enough. I will not lie. Eternal torment does sound worse than eternal death. But we are not to try to persuade people based upon earthly physical matters, the feeling of torment. For if that is so, then when persuaded they will only think of that which is physical. They have no desire for a savior from sin, just a savior from the punishment of sin.

This is where the professing believers are today. The ones who desired a savior from punishment are quite content in their 'position' of not having to 'suffer' in hell. All the while making excuses after excuses for the sin they live in. Where as the ones who desired a savior from sin, are the ones who walk in the light and live lives pleasing to God.

You can call me anything you like. You can say I do whatever you like. But I have not called God a lier, nor have I indicated that He has to 'make something up'. He did give us something to compare eternity with Him against, and that is eternity away from Him. In Him is life. Without Him is death.

People can continue to 'turn' people toward God with anything they want. But what it will not do is turn them away from their sin. And until someone turns away from their sin, they CANNOT turn to God. That is repentance at it's simplest definition.

Repentance is not a turning away from what you do not want to experience, future tense. Rather, repentance is turning away from something, present tense.

And I can claim without a shadow of a doubt that until someone repents they cannot believe. And that, friends, is what Jesus and His disciples preached - repentance.

[childeye]

And I can claim without a shadow of a doubt that until someone repents they cannot believe. And that, friends, is what Jesus and His disciples preached - repentance.

Everything you said in your post was very strong. I sense a passion in your words expressing a dislike of those perspectives that would count God as cruel. However depending upon how we apply the terms I would say that belief and repentance are about the same thing. For once one believes he has repented. Semantics blah, blah, blah. A small and practically insignifigant point. Once again I don't really add anything to the conversation. That's too bad because I find it interesting.

[NathanH]

Everything you said in your post was very strong. I sense a passion in your words expressing a dislike of those perspectives that would count God as cruel. However depending upon how we apply the terms I would say that belief and repentance are about the same thing. For once one believes he has repented. Semantics blah, blah, blah. A small and practically insignifigant point. Once again I don't really add anything to the conversation. That's too bad because I find it interesting.

I cannot say I "like" discussions of this nature, but deep down I do see a need for them. Its hard though, because many times emotions get involved and then the discussion goes out the window.

Semantics do sometimes get in the way sometimes. But lets play with them a little.

Belief and repentance are the same thing. Its simply a matter of what a person has believed. lol

On one hand you have the person who has believed they are sinful and deserve a life of eternal torment, burning in hell. Ouch! What do they then repent of? Well, following the logical train, they have repented of their sin. However, because their focus was on the past wrong and future punishment they lack the belief that Christ came to save from sins here and now.

Then on the other hand you have the person who has believed they are sinful and desire the eternal life God gives. Woohoo! What did they repent of? Themselves...see, to have life eternal one must die to himself here and now. Their focus is past, present, and future. They have the focus of a Savior who saves from sin and with that comes life.

Now, does that mean that one 'repentance' cannot follow another 'repentance'? Certainly not. It can, and often times does. It did with me. But, and thats a big but, often times it does not. These are the ones who you see in "church" for a while, then turn around only to see them living the same ole life they lived before. There was repentance, but not the saving kind.

The idea of repentance revolves around a 'life' choice. Repentance is not an "event" that takes place, it is a "choice" that takes(ongoing) place. And when someone looks toward the future they miss the here and now.

Eternal torment 'grabs' the attention away from the spiritual, and puts it onto the physical. And until someone can understand they are 'dead'(spiritually) in their sins, they can never reach true repentance. They may repent physically, but they are likely not to repent spiritually.

Is this all that important? It was important to Jesus. Read John 8. Not once did Jesus speak of eternal torment. However, He did speak to them about life, death, sin, and freedom.

Some believe the Gospel to be the good news that we do not have to go to hell. But the truth of the Gospel is that Jesus the Christ paid the price for our sins and we are free in Him. The outcome of this freedom is life for us, but death to those who do not choose Him.

Another thought to chew on is this; Why sin? The majority will say because it gives man a choice and therefore he is not a 'robot'. Yes there are different lines of thinking, but thats another topic. But if thats the case, then how much more of a choice would it be for someone to choose to live for Christ over just living for themselves and then going "poof" in the end?

Personally, I would say it would be a BIG choice. See, we think that...get that..."we"...think that "we" are doing God a favor and "growing the kingdom" by doing whatever it takes to "win" souls. Jesus had a different method...tell them the truth...tell them the good news...then let them decide.

The truth? Hell, eternity, torment, burning, non-existence, etc...whatever, the truth is that life is available to those who choose a Savior who can save them and they choose Him now. Those who just want a 'savior' from hell are not going to find one.

Edited February 16, 2012 by NathanH