Do you believe in hell as an eternal torment?

[HAZARD]

Thank you very much everyone. I still have to ask what about the verses that say that wages of sin is death and all this other stuff that Jehovah's witnesses talk about?

Thanks

Forget the Witnesses, they will lead you down the wrong path. Hell is eternal punishment. That being said, God will do right even by those who have never ever even heard of Him! or any other name associated with and to God. God has revealed His method of dealing with these people even those who have never heard the gospel.

Paul stated in Romans 2:12-16 that God will do right by every man according to the light he has recieved. He said, "For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law unto themselves: which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the meanwhile accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets fo men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Scriptures also prove and teach that there are degrees of punishments in hell depending upon the sins comitted as there are also rewards in Heaven according to the life lived in jesus. I can supply the scriptures if asked.

Cheers, Haz.

[Reformed-cross]

Hell is a necessary part of what it means for God to be just, righteous, holy, pure without any admixture of falseness.

Its because God is good and we are not that there is a hell.

Hell is not the cessation of being, otherwise there could be no justice, there could be no reward to the wicked. Ceasing to exist is neither reward or punishment. It is an absence of being.

If hell were a cessation of being then to warn people about it has no more effect than warning them about an attack of unicorns from the planet zebot. Its means nothing and cannot effect anything in them except at the very best cause a vain fear but has no basis in reality.

That is the real rub, when someone believes that hell is just the cessation of being they are saying in effect there is nothing to fear from God. In this life you might get in trouble, but once dead you are untouchable, you are past even God's hand to hold you accountable and require justice for himself for the sins committed against him.

With this kind of teaching a man might as well launch all the nuclear warheads and destroy the whole planet and all life on it, and in the end being the greatest murderer of all eternity, he would not suffer any punishment, any accountability, nor would he suffer any loss or feel the slightest tinge of remorse. In fact, it would be as though God gave him a free-pass to be the biggest thief and destroyer without even so much as an angry glance.

Clearly this is not the representation of God, or of his view of sin, or of his view of the acts of men in the world. There is no love in God if there is no justice in God. Insofar as one values life and people he will require and expect justice in this world and the next. Jesus taught this very truth. Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

R.E.

[childeye]

Hell is a necessary part of what it means for God to be just, righteous, holy, pure without any admixture of falseness.

Its because God is good and we are not that there is a hell.

Hell is not the cessation of being, otherwise there could be no justice, there could be no reward to the wicked. Ceasing to exist is neither reward or punishment. It is an absence of being.

If hell were a cessation of being then to warn people about it has no more effect than warning them about an attack of unicorns from the planet zebot. Its means nothing and cannot effect anything in them except at the very best cause a vain fear but has no basis in reality.

That is the real rub, when someone believes that hell is just the cessation of being they are saying in effect there is nothing to fear from God. In this life you might get in trouble, but once dead you are untouchable, you are past even God's hand to hold you accountable and require justice for himself for the sins committed against him.

With this kind of teaching a man might as well launch all the nuclear warheads and destroy the whole planet and all life on it, and in the end being the greatest murderer of all eternity, he would not suffer any punishment, any accountability, nor would he suffer any loss or feel the slightest tinge of remorse. In fact, it would be as though God gave him a free-pass to be the biggest thief and destroyer without even so much as an angry glance.

Clearly this is not the representation of God, or of his view of sin, or of his view of the acts of men in the world. There is no love in God if there is no justice in God. Insofar as one values life and people he will require and expect justice in this world and the next. Jesus taught this very truth. Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

After reading this, I sense that you are referring to the second death. I truly don't know the composition of the lake of fire. Fire breaks down the elements is all I know and that God is able to destroy both soul and body. So I am left to wonder why this second death is accounted as eternal torture. Certainly the fear of such a thing is motivating, but it is a motivation unlike the Christ. The motivation of hell is more self serving in seeking to escape torment rather than the hope of eternal life that is based on caring for others. I find mercy to be greater than justice in Christ but I'd imagine God must eventually destroy that which destroys life for everyone.

So that brings forth the question, is heaven and worship of God based upon the fear of going to hell? No, it cannot be so. That is a great distance from The God I see in the Christ. Moreover being dead in Christ is dying to sin so as to live in Christ. Hence he who overcomes the flesh has no fear of the second death. The only people I have read go into the lake of fire are those who take the mark of the beast.

Revelation 2:10-11

10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

So what is this second death if not a permanent destruction, since death itself is thrown in there?

[Reformed-cross]

Hell is a necessary part of what it means for God to be just, righteous, holy, pure without any admixture of falseness.

Its because God is good and we are not that there is a hell.

Hell is not the cessation of being, otherwise there could be no justice, there could be no reward to the wicked. Ceasing to exist is neither reward or punishment. It is an absence of being.

If hell were a cessation of being then to warn people about it has no more effect than warning them about an attack of unicorns from the planet zebot. Its means nothing and cannot effect anything in them except at the very best cause a vain fear but has no basis in reality.

That is the real rub, when someone believes that hell is just the cessation of being they are saying in effect there is nothing to fear from God. In this life you might get in trouble, but once dead you are untouchable, you are past even God's hand to hold you accountable and require justice for himself for the sins committed against him.

With this kind of teaching a man might as well launch all the nuclear warheads and destroy the whole planet and all life on it, and in the end being the greatest murderer of all eternity, he would not suffer any punishment, any accountability, nor would he suffer any loss or feel the slightest tinge of remorse. In fact, it would be as though God gave him a free-pass to be the biggest thief and destroyer without even so much as an angry glance.

Clearly this is not the representation of God, or of his view of sin, or of his view of the acts of men in the world. There is no love in God if there is no justice in God. Insofar as one values life and people he will require and expect justice in this world and the next. Jesus taught this very truth. Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

After reading this, I sense that you are referring to the second death. I truly don't know the composition of the lake of fire. Fire breaks down the elements is all I know and that God is able to destroy both soul and body. So I am left to wonder why this second death is accounted as eternal torture. Certainly the fear of such a thing is motivating, but it is a motivation unlike the Christ. The motivation of hell is more self serving in seeking to escape torment rather than the hope of eternal life that is based on caring for others. I find mercy to be greater than justice in Christ but I'd imagine God must eventually destroy that which destroys life for everyone.

So that brings forth the question, is heaven and worship of God based upon the fear of going to hell? No, it cannot be so. That is a great distance from The God I see in the Christ. Moreover being dead in Christ is dying to sin so as to live in Christ. Hence he who overcomes the flesh has no fear of the second death. The only people I have read go into the lake of fire are those who take the mark of the beast.

Revelation 2:10-11

10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

So what is this second death if not a permanent destruction, since death itself is thrown in there?

Hello again Childeye: Wow, you ask some great questions.

In regards to the worship of God, of course heavenly worship is not motivated by a fear of hell. We read of the song of the worshippers...Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

I believe from this text and many others that we will praise and worship God because he ransomed us, purchased us, redeemed us, forgave us, loved us, chose us, sanctified us, preserved us, delivered us and brought us to himself to know him and enjoy him forever. This is the basis I believe of heavenly worship, in fact its identical with the worship we are to give God now. The difference being we are still at war, we are in the midst of our journey to the New Jerusalem and have not arrived yet.

Hell is a motivator because God has instilled in humanity a piece of himself called 'value of life'. Its a defect to desire death, or destruction for its own sake. We all enter life born to enjoy and preserve that life we are given. Hell is not the cessation of being, it is not the end of life, it is the end of a quality of life, it is the removal of the blessing and beauty of God in that life. So, it is that all humanity saint and sinner enjoy the common grace and goodness of God because this is God's world, God's place where we dwell. Hell is the absence of the blessing of God, the absence of common grace, the emptiness of all God-given mercies and kindnesses that arrive new to us every day from the hand of God. Hell was prepared for devils to suffer the judgment of God, men are now entered into that same judgment since the fall. Since Jesus told us what hell's original intent was, and now man is subject to that same judgment, we would have to believe that angels would be burned up as well.

When death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire as a part of the judgment of God, its representative to me that it is the end of death and the end of hell, so shall death never raise again, nor shall hell threaten again. In short men shall no longer be subject to those fears in heaven that we experience on the earth.

Allow me to continue one step further. If the second death is cessation of being, there is no necessity for its eternality, there is no necessity for such vivid and terrifying explantions of who goes there and what they shall suffer because to believe they cease to exist means they cease to suffer not only in terms of the kind of punishment but in terms of the length of punishment.

Which again connects a curious thing "Why give the damned a resurrection body if they are to cease to exist?"

My questions are rhetorical you need not answer, Im only saying that death does not represent cessation of being, it represents absence of the life of God and all that entails to a person.

This is what I find to be the most biblical in my mind and most accurately representative of what death means as viewed from scripture.

R.E.

[childeye]

In regards to the worship of God, of course heavenly worship is not motivated by a fear of hell. We read of the song of the worshippers...Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth."

I believe from this text and many others that we will praise and worship God because he ransomed us, purchased us, redeemed us, forgave us, loved us, chose us, sanctified us, preserved us, delivered us and brought us to himself to know him and enjoy him forever. This is the basis I believe of heavenly worship, in fact its identical with the worship we are to give God now. The difference being we are still at war, we are in the midst of our journey to the New Jerusalem and have not arrived yet.

Hell is a motivator because God has instilled in humanity a piece of himself called 'value of life'. Its a defect to desire death, or destruction for its own sake. We all enter life born to enjoy and preserve that life we are given. Hell is not the cessation of being, it is not the end of life, it is the end of a quality of life, it is the removal of the blessing and beauty of God in that life. So, it is that all humanity saint and sinner enjoy the common grace and goodness of God because this is God's world, God's place where we dwell. Hell is the absence of the blessing of God, the absence of common grace, the emptiness of all God-given mercies and kindnesses that arrive new to us every day from the hand of God. Hell was prepared for devils to suffer the judgment of God, men are now entered into that same judgment since the fall. Since Jesus told us what hell's original intent was, and now man is subject to that same judgment, we would have to believe that angels would be burned up as well.

When death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire as a part of the judgment of God, its representative to me that it is the end of death and the end of hell, so shall death never raise again, nor shall hell threaten again. In short men shall no longer be subject to those fears in heaven that we experience on the earth.

Allow me to continue one step further. If the second death is cessation of being, there is no necessity for its eternality, there is no necessity for such vivid and terrifying explantions of who goes there and what they shall suffer because to believe they cease to exist means they cease to suffer not only in terms of the kind of punishment but in terms of the length of punishment.

Which again connects a curious thing "Why give the damned a resurrection body if they are to cease to exist?"

My questions are rhetorical you need not answer, Im only saying that death does not represent cessation of being, it represents absence of the life of God and all that entails to a person.

This is what I find to be the most biblical in my mind and most accurately representative of what death means as viewed from scripture.

R.E.

Thanks for the response, it was very thorough in addressing many points as accurately as knowledge allows. You definitely are using self evident explanations when speaking about the will to live and the hypocrisy or defect of destruction for it's own sake.

I tend to distinguish between the hell known as Sheol and the second death. It seems Jesus has the keys to hell and death after being caught up to God. Of course the words of scripture, sometimes may not mean what they seem to mean. As you say death does not mean cessation of being. How that factors into interpretation of scripture has far reaching implications. Brought to mind is the mountain of flesh talked about in the last verse of the book of Isaiah. When I read about it, it seems like some place that everyone must periodocally visit, as a testimony to what happened because of disobedience to God. So as if there we would be thoroughly reminded by viewing captured in time the insanity that was wrought by vanity.

Consequently, I find it plausible that the antichrist will be Satan incarnate and also his supporting angels may also be. Consequently those who take the mark of the beast are those who were not written in the lambs book of life. Do you know if there is scripture to support this view or negate it?