The "Old Testament"

[mizzdy]

1. The "old testament" It is such a strange label for what it is and is really quite inappropriate.
2. The old testament and the old covenant are not synonymous.
3. The change in sacrifices (from animals to Jesus) and the change in priesthood (from Aaronic to Melchizedek), has not "done away" with the entire old testament.
4. The "change" in the covenant does not imply a change in God's nature. The God of the "old testament" is the same as the God in the "new testament", or, God hasn't changed merely because the fulfilment of sacrifices and the role of High Priest has.
5. There is no difference in the value or applicability of scriptures between the old and new testaments.
6. "That's in the old testament, and I am not under the old covenant" is a false appeal.

The first person to divide the Bible up into "Old Testament" and "New Testament" Scriptures was a man named Melito of Sardis way back in the 2nd Century. This is wirtten about by Eusebius. http://www.ccel.org/...ii.ix.xxvi.html

Scroll down to passage #14

Ufortunately, this has created the sense that the "Old Testament" Scriptures are not relevant for us. From the perspective of the NT writers, The Tanakh was simply "The Scriptures." The NT is written out of OT knowledge. The Berean Jews tested the teachings of Paul against "the Scriptures." There is no biblical division of the Scriptures into "Old" or "New" Testament divisions. Those divisions are post-biblical.

Yes, though I guess saying that the Bereans were testing new teachings against "scripture" is more correct than saying they were checking the "new" against the "old". They didn't consider the Tanakh to be old in the same way the OT is considered (by some) today. Not at all!

I'm not sure at all they were testing 'new' teachings but making sure that what the apostles and Yeshua were saying measured up to the scriptures. After all there must be two witnesses to something, that whatever happened, whatever was said needed to be from God written in the prophets and the like. John the baptist would never have been there as a voice crying in the wilderness and others would have known exactly who he was proclaiming, the riding into Jerusalem on the donkey was there in scriptures for them to see. The Tanakh was considered the only scriptures to judge Messiah by and what the apostles were teaching. Sometimes I sit and think about how they finally saw that through Yeshua's death restoration came, but it was the mystery how that whole divorce and remarriage thing was going to come about that probably had them all scratching their heads and ultimately rejoicing in it all.

shalom,

Mizz

[~candice~]

5) Of course, when you say there is no difference in the applicability of scriptures between the old and new testaments, you aren't saying that the ceremonial regulations of Leviticus in the OT regarding, for example, personal defilement by child birth and sexual intercourse, etc., etc. apply in the NT, right? Right.

3) I don't know of anyone who says the entire Old Testament has been done away with, do you? Sadly, yes . Which is why I wrote this. There are people who equate the OT and the OC and believe hence the OT is done away with.

1) However, " Old Testament" and "New Testament" are appropriate names when you realize that "covenant" and "testament" are the same Greek word, diatheke, which is the Holy Spirit's NT word for the Hebrew word berith, a will that distributes one's property after death according to the owner's wishes. LOL well, it's not "testament" I disagree with, but "old" and "new".

[jasoncran]

they used that(paul) and it was for the testament in the torah given on mt sinai not the prophets, writings.. that it only refers too.

many christians would also include daniel being such a book when they say the ot. the torah is still alive(mizzdy will know when i say this)

the menorah and its meanings are to be studied and also the heavenlies in the temple. these are images of god and his nature and are timeless and few christians bother with that stuff.

[~candice~]

they used that(paul) and it was for the testament in the torah given on mt sinai not the prophets, writings.. that it only refers too.

many christians would also include daniel being such a book when they say the ot. the torah is still alive(mizzdy will know when i say this)

the menorah and its meanings are to be studied and also the heavenlies in the temple. these are images of god and his nature and are timeless and few christians bother with that stuff.

Right.

There is nothing old about the Psalms and Proverbs.

Not every "OT" prophecy has been fulfilled.

None of what we learn of the character of God has been replaced with a newer character.

There is much in the "OT" which is timeless, and to call it old implies things I don't want to imply. If you know what I mean?

[~candice~]

1) However, " Old Testament" and "New Testament" are appropriate names when you realize that "covenant" and "testament" are the same Greek word, diatheke, which is the Holy Spirit's NT word for the Hebrew word berith, a will that distributes one's property after death according to the owner's wishes.

LOL well, it's not "testament" I disagree with, but "old" and "new".

You do realize that the Jews who penned the NT used "old" and "new" of the two covenants, right?

But not of the testament. I've never read a Jew call the Tanakh the "old" anything.

[jasoncran]

i dont call the tanach the ot when i talk to jews.

[gdemoss]

I understand the sentiment of the OP and agree with the horror of believing that the Old Testament is not of any use today is tragic but to me it is much like the problem the word 'religion' has today gaining a bad reputation due to all the false religion out there but the bible speaks of pure and undefiled before God religion.

I always go back to what God has said to see what is the right way to address these things.

2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

According to God there is an old testament.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There is also a new testament.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The old testament can reveal the new testament to you so not to be considered invalidated or irrelevant.

From the beginning to the end of the bible we find that salvation was always understood as by grace through faith that is justified by works. God came and spoke to his creation. People believed and acted accordingly. God saved his obedient people. Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden and walked by faith believing that they should be clothed as God provided and waited upon his promise of a coming Savior. Over time the description of the works given by God for us to do has changed but the promise of a Savior never changed but became realized. As the OP stated, the testament was basically modified rather than done away with.

Gary

[nebula]

1) However, " Old Testament" and "New Testament" are appropriate names when you realize that "covenant" and "testament" are the same Greek word, diatheke, which is the Holy Spirit's NT word for the Hebrew word berith, a will that distributes one's property after death according to the owner's wishes.

2) So covenant, testament, and will all convey the same meaning. They relate God's will in the distribution of his riches, to the glory of Christ Jesus.

What is your source for the Hebrew word berith?

Looking up Strong's explanation:

from (01262) (in the sense of cutting [like (1254)])

01262 = Barah

to eat, consume

(Qal) to eat

(Piel) for eating, devouring

(Hiphil) to cause to eat

1254 = Diakoluo

to hinder, prevent

Definition

covenant, alliance, pledge

between men

treaty, alliance, league (man to man)

constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects)

agreement, pledge (man to man)

alliance (of friendship)

alliance (of marriage)

between God and man

alliance (of friendship)

covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)

(phrases)

covenant making

covenant keeping

covenant violation

There is no sense here of "a will".

[enoob57]

I understand the sentiment of the OP and agree with the horror of believing that the Old Testament is not of any use today is tragic but to me it is much like the problem the word 'religion' has today gaining a bad reputation due to all the false religion out there but the bible speaks of pure and undefiled before God religion.

I always go back to what God has said to see what is the right way to address these things.

2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

According to God there is an old testament.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There is also a new testament.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

The old testament can reveal the new testament to you so not to be considered invalidated or irrelevant.

From the beginning to the end of the bible we find that salvation was always understood as by grace through faith that is justified by works. God came and spoke to his creation. People believed and acted accordingly. God saved his obedient people. Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden and walked by faith believing that they should be clothed as God provided and waited upon his promise of a coming Savior. Over time the description of the works given by God for us to do has changed but the promise of a Savior never changed but became realized. As the OP stated, the testament was basically modified rather than done away with.

Gary

I have been studying along those collated lines of thought! I find it unique how the O.T. is dealing with man in his unregenerate aspects and in the fullness of time Christ came to regenerate! It seems that we have the O.T. to reveal the battle we face against our unredeemed flesh and world we live in as New Born Spiritual Life with God while still here.... a manual so to speak on the how to of overcoming our flesh to glorify our Lord. I am fascinated with the study of it in this way! What started me thinking in these lines of thought was this passage

1 Cor 10:6-13

6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. 7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." 8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; 9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; 10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

NKJV

Like Being born again as Israel delivered from Egypt and passing through the water to receive the the understanding of God's righteousness by Law and entering the promised land but the land is already inhabited by wicked influence (people)/(our flesh) and must be totally annihilated to assure no temptations of evil in their remaining etc...

Love, Steven

[~candice~]

Old Covenant=Old Testament=Old Will.

Didn't we put this to bed? The collection of writings known as the Old Testament contain far more than the Old Covenant, and that really needs to be recognised.

Not everything written in the OT is the "old will".