Why I cringe when people say it is all about choice

[childeye]

Free will....this is one of many sugjects I see heavily debated on. Love, in itself answers this question for me. For it is FREELY given. It is not expected.

Godly Love is eternal. God has ever given it. It is expected by those who trust in God, who know God. The unbelief in the Christ is the unbelief in this Love as being eternal. Love is not manufactured at the will of man which freewill implies. Love is the ultimate emotion and source of all emotions whether by it's presence or absence in various degrees. It is not a decision to have it, although those with faith abide in it and it in them. Or rather we abide in Him and He abides in us. You either have Him or you don't. An example: When watching a movie about the Christ and you see him suffer, do you decide when it's time to cry or are you moved to do so by the Holy Spirit?

Did God make Satan/Lucifer Sin?

Of course not. In post #1, it is described how the vanity of Satan occured which led to his sin.

Why encourage us to love and forgive if we have no say in the matter?

Because the only alternative to Love is death, therefore Love encourages to love. Please try not to confuse a "will" with a "freewill". We all have wills with which we choose but our wills are ruled spiritually by either Light or Darkness.

Why did Jesus come to die for us if we do not have the choice to love and accept Him as our Savior?

He came to die for us because we had no avenue unto life that could be accomplished by our will because of sin. No one here is saying a man will not choose to follow Christ. We are saying that those with faith will choose to follow Christ and those who have no faith will choose not to. And so God has chosen the poor rich in faith and works salvation from the bottom up so as to eliminate any boasting in the flesh; so as to think, I did this and chose by my freewill to believe, and that other man who believes not, chose not to of his freewill. I am therefore better than he and deserving of eternal life while he deserves eternal damnation because we both chose freely. Therefore it is through faith that it might be by grace so that no man may boast.

If we have no free will, then why are we not perfect and in need of a Savior?

We were perfect as God has made us. We already were children of God and like God Himself. But through believing the serpents lie, we doubted who we were and believed we could be like God through the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is to know right and wrong and to choose between the two. But this was a worldy wisdom that based righteousness on choosing, rather than on Character of person. Now we need a savior to rescue us from the vanity of righteousness by works which gives glory to the one who chooses to do right through following the letter rather than the Spirit..

Now if I have misunderstood something, please feel free to rebuke me. Just do not understand how anyone can scripturally say that we do not have free will when God has been letting us choose from the beginning.

I didn't understand it either till I was let in on the mystery of the hidden wisdom. Nobody understands it until God reveals it through the Holy Spirit. I began by seeking and asking God why Jesus said forgive them, they know not what they do. For it seemed to me that men had freewills and knew exactly what they were doing. I soon found out that sin was not a choice, but a fatal condition of a darkness of the heart and corruption of the mind. That's why we need a savior. That's why God says He puts a new heart in us and gives us the Spirit of Truth to rescue us from our deception. Think of it this way, can a deceived man choose with a freewill not to be deceived when the key part of his deception is that he thinks he is not deceived? The blind think they see.

John 9:41

New International Version (NIV)

41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

Romans 1:22

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

John 9:39

New International Version (NIV)

39 Jesus said,[a] “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

Matthew 6:22-26

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is [a]clear, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

[Floatingaxe]

The love of God that we must spread around is not an emotion. It is an act of the will---the free will, done in obedience to God.

childeye~ Please explain what you mean by this, using scripture:

We were perfect as God has made us. We already were children of God and like God Himself. But through believing the serpents lie, we doubted who we were and believed we could be like God through the knowledge of good and evil.

[Floatingaxe]

Manifesting God's glory is not foolishness to God. It is part of the wonder that is our magnificent God! Sometimes when people try to sound deeply spiritual, they miss the boat.

You seem to keep misunderstanding. Of course manifesting His Glory is not foolishness. God is using foolishness to manifest His Glory by making mankind see they are fools in taking God for granted.

Not everyone takes God for granted. He uses His creation and His people to manifest Himself.

[childeye]

The love of God that we must spread around is not an emotion. It is an act of the will---the free will, done in obedience to God.

Respectfully Love is the source and purpose of every emotion. What is a kiss? what is a hug? What is charity? What is empathy and compassion? What is fear, for perfect Love casts out all fear. 1 Corinthians 13

The Excellence of Love

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body [a]to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of [c]prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

1 John 4:7-10

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

God Is Love

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is [a]born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, in that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

childeye~ Please explain what you mean by this, using scripture:

We were perfect as God has made us. We already were children of God and like God Himself. But through believing the serpents lie, we doubted who we were and believed we could be like God through the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 1:27-28

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them;Genesis 1:31

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Lk:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Genesis 3:4-5

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

2 Corinthians 11:3

King James Version (KJV)

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

[childeye]

Manifesting God's glory is not foolishness to God. It is part of the wonder that is our magnificent God! Sometimes when people try to sound deeply spiritual, they miss the boat.

You seem to keep misunderstanding. Of course manifesting His Glory is not foolishness. God is using foolishness to manifest His Glory by making mankind see they are fools in taking God for granted.

Not everyone takes God for granted. He uses His creation and His people to manifest Himself.

Yes you are right that God manifests His Love through His people. In all honesty, I can't speak for everyone. But I think that we all take what God has given us for granted to some extent before coming to properly worship Him. Some more than others. That is what I mean by taking God for granted. Paul has said in Romans 1 that we have no excuse. I think He is saying we all have taken God for granted in not acknowledging Him and His Godhead. For He says we were unthankful and became vain. Look at some of these translations:

New International Version (©1984)

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

New Living Translation (©2007)

Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.

English Standard Version (©2001)

For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

International Standard Version (©2008)

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him. Instead, their thoughts turned to worthless things, and their senseless hearts were darkened.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)

Because they knew God, and they did not glorify him as God, nor did they give him thanks, so that they became destitute in their reasoning and became dull in their heart without understanding.

[Floatingaxe]

The love that God talks about is not an emotion. Period. No hearts and flowers.

[Openly Curious]

The love that God talks about is not an emotion. Period. No hearts and flowers.

.

[AnotherSinner]

Godly Love is eternal. God has ever given it. It is expected by those who trust in God, who know God. The unbelief in the Christ is the unbelief in this Love as being eternal. Love is not manufactured at the will of man which freewill implies. Love is the ultimate emotion and source of all emotions whether by it's presence or absence in various degrees. It is not a decision to have it, although those with faith abide in it and it in them. Or rather we abide in Him and He abides in us. You either have Him or you don't. An example: When watching a movie about the Christ and you see him suffer, do you decide when it's time to cry or are you moved to do so by the Holy Spirit?

The above I cannot disagree with. God's love is Eternal. We have seen this from beginning to end in scripture and it remains entact today.

Of course not. In post #1, it is described how the vanity of Satan occured which led to his sin.

Okay. So again we are in agreement here that Satan became vain and the end result was sin.

Because the only alternative to Love is death, therefore Love encourages to love. Please try not to confuse a "will" with a "freewill". We all have wills with which we choose but our wills are ruled spiritually by either Light or Darkness.

Why did Jesus come to die for us if we do not have the choice to love and accept Him as our Savior?

He came to die for us because we had no avenue unto life that could be accomplished by our will because of sin. No one here is saying a man will not choose to follow Christ. We are saying that those with faith will choose to follow Christ and those who have no faith will choose not to. And so God has chosen the poor rich in faith and works salvation from the bottom up so as to eliminate any boasting in the flesh; so as to think, I did this and chose by my freewill to believe, and that other man who believes not, chose not to of his freewill. I am therefore better than he and deserving of eternal life while he deserves eternal damnation because we both chose freely. Therefore it is through faith that it might be by grace so that no man may boast.

Here is where I am at a loss. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying here. Are you saying that because the options or choices are few that there is no free will? We see so many choices like this daily. A sad example in this case would be: A young person who has been recently dealing with a great deal of bullying after being picked on most of his or her young life feels like he or she has no self worth. Choices here are more or less to tough it out and see through the bullying by getting help or toughening up one's own skin. Then...there is always the option to simply end it all...irronically, through death.

While I cannot argue that Satan always has a trick up his sleeve in which to use to try to pull us away from God, I find it hard to simply say that we do not have the freedom of thought or choice in the matter as to whom we are going to spend our lives serving or trying to serve. Then...what about this too, if there is only light and darkness...what of these poor souls who have decided in their hearts that there is NO higher power of any sort? Or what of those who are never taught about God? Just do not see how there is no free will. I understand that we all live life and have an opportunity to do so for God or not, and otherwise choose to have an eternity with Him or experience not only a physical death, but a spiritual one.

We were perfect as God has made us. We already were children of God and like God Himself. But through believing the serpents lie, we doubted who we were and believed we could be like God through the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is to know right and wrong and to choose between the two. But this was a worldy wisdom that based righteousness on choosing, rather than on Character of person. Now we need a savior to rescue us from the vanity of righteousness by works which gives glory to the one who chooses to do right through following the letter rather than the Spirit..

So because we all should, though are not necessarily always taught right and wrong from a scriptural stand point......we have no free will?

[childeye]

The love that God talks about is not an emotion. Period. No hearts and flowers.

Oh come on Floatingaxe, you're going to state here you feel no empathy for others? I don't believe it. You never wanted to see others happy or felt pity when you saw others suffer? What's wrong with hearts and flowers? Soft hearts feel and are tender. Hard hearts feel nothing... So what do you think? You simply will Love to be? Explain yourself.

[childeye]

Here is where I am at a loss. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying here. Are you saying that because the options or choices are few that there is no free will?

I'm saying that faith is not the same as choice. For example a woman fought through a crowd for she believed if she could just touch the hem of the garment of Jesus, she would be healed. She did touch his garment and power went out of Jesus even without his assent and she was healed by her faith. Her faith however preceded her decision, or choice, to to try and touch his garment.

We see so many choices like this daily. A sad example in this case would be: A young person who has been recently dealing with a great deal of bullying after being picked on most of his or her young life feels like he or she has no self worth. Choices here are more or less to tough it out and see through the bullying by getting help or toughening up one's own skin. Then...there is always the option to simply end it all...irronically, through death.

In this scenario you have provided, a person is placed in a position not of their choosing. The bullying that is enacted upon others is not by a freewill, but by wills that are ruled by darkness. They seek to attack anyone who has any goodness they don't have so as to destroy it. The victim did not choose to be bullied but must endure or succumb to those powers that promote death and seek to cause someone to despise their life. The Christ enables us to allow any bully to do their thing and yet forgive them as they do it, knowing they are pawns of Satan and don't know that they are serving him. One who faces a bully and gives their face to be struck by them will conquer that spirit that bullies and even earn the respect of those who bully. This is the power of Christ that I believe in.

While I cannot argue that Satan always has a trick up his sleeve in which to use to try to pull us away from God, I find it hard to simply say that we do not have the freedom of thought or choice in the matter as to whom we are going to spend our lives serving or trying to serve.

Perhaps you should be considering whether one has the faith so as to be capable of choosing. Moreover one cannot choose what they don't see or comprehend. Saul thought he had chosen to serve God when he was stoning anyone who preached the Gospel. Where was his freewill to choose then? He was serving Satan while thinking he was serving God. A deceived mind is not free.

Then...what about this too, if there is only light and darkness...what of these poor souls who have decided in their hearts that there is NO higher power of any sort?

They are deceived. We all believe in something to be true. Hence their reasoning is hypocritical. One cannot believe they make up the Truth. One cannot say for example 1+1=2 just because they created it. It existed before them and to not submit to such a Truth is to claim ignorance is knowledge.

Or what of those who are never taught about God? Just do not see how there is no free will. I understand that we all live life and have an opportunity to do so for God or not, and otherwise choose to have an eternity with Him or experience not only a physical death, but a spiritual one.

When you say those who have never been taught about God I'm not sure you mean by other people or the Holy Spirit, so I can't address that. However, you say we all have an opportunity to live for God or not and that is an assumption. As I showed above, Saul thought he was living unto God and while busy persecuting the christ.

We were perfect as God has made us. We already were children of God and like God Himself. But through believing the serpents lie, we doubted who we were and believed we could be like God through the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is to know right and wrong and to choose between the two. But this was a worldy wisdom that based righteousness on choosing, rather than on Character of person. Now we need a savior to rescue us from the vanity of righteousness by works which gives glory to the one who chooses to do right through following the letter rather than the Spirit..

So because we all should, though are not necessarily always taught right and wrong from a scriptural stand point......we have no free will?

I'm sorry but I am not sure what you mean by because we all should. Because we all should what? I take it you mean be good? If you look at the term freewill, it is meaning to imply that we are in control of our moral direction through the choosing of the deliberation of the mind. Scripture is saying the simplest of Truths, that one is only good by faith that God is good. Remember He is Love and Love makes us good. But if we take glory for it, this is vanity and we have not esteemed God appropriately. He who Loves knows God.