Why I Abominate the Prosperity Gospel

[sPrevorb31]

all they that shall live godly lives shall suffer. so what about the tribualtion saints? copeland teaches the futurist position. so when them jews and gentiles come forth to the LORD they dont get rich now they do they! they die! so wheres their promise of riches?

and this area in parts is my testimony. i came to god to be healed from not being able to hold a job,lonely, and bisexuality. i asked god for a job and to be able to hold a job and also to own a house and to have it together. all this has come to past but my life isnt fixed yet as he knows where im broken still.im not my own but His. he has blessed me.

That is so awesome! Amen!

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, Christians do get sick, but it isn't God's will. He has given us the ability to be healed---every one of us who know Jesus Christ. Everything we need is in our born again spirits. We just have to tap into it with our intellect---our souls---and our body will respond. Believe by faith.

As for Paul, who knew exactly how to have victory over sickness, the thorn was not an illness.

The reality is that every single Christian throughout history has gotten sick and eventually died from illness or disease (except war, violence, etc.). So, are you saying that they all lacked faith? Paul's thorn in the flesh was an illness. Regardless, your stance contradicts the Holy Bible. You have to remember that little thing that happened with Adam, Eve, and the garden (the fall of man). Obviously, we don't have the ability or power to heal ourselves - regardless of how much faith we have. Did you consider the Scripture I quoted? Here it is again for you. Is the Holy Bible in error?

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Is the above portion of Scripture in error? If so, I can quote many more for you that indicate the same conditions for man. If you ignore what the Holy Bible says, you still have the reality of 100% certainty of serious illness and eventual death. Surely, you must be aware of strong Christians who get cancer, diabetes, other chronic illnesses and eventual die. As Christians, we don't have our glorified bodies yet, and we won't in this short life. Until then, we will have illness, disease, and death.

We have it within us as Christians the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, and all provision for healing and overcoming. When we are beset by illness, we have the wherewithal to gain healing--just as Paul had. To use the 'thorn' as a way to support the lie that God wants any of us sick is against Him and is a tick in Satan's box.

[OneLight]

Out of curiosity, what was Paul's thorn in his side?

[Floatingaxe]

Paul's thorn was not in his side---that was a saying used in the Old Testament that he never used. Paul's thorn was a demonic spirit that went before him to stir up people to persecute him wherever he went, because of the greatness of his revelations. God is always willing to heal all who would call upon the name of Jesus. Paul of all people knew how to appropriate his own healing! The one thing that God does promise us is the hardship of persecution---He doesn't remove that from us. In fact, He promises us persecution, as well as the grace from God to bear up under it, which is what He reminded Paul of.

[OneLight]

Paul's thorn was not in his side---that was a saying used in the Old Testament that he never used. Paul's thorn was a demonic spirit that went before him to stir up people to persecute him wherever he went, because of the greatness of his revelations. God is always willing to heal all who would call upon the name of Jesus. Paul of all people knew how to appropriate his own healing! The one thing that God does promise us is the hardship of persecution---He doesn't remove that from us. In fact, He promises us persecution, as well as the grace from God to bear up under it, which is what He reminded Paul of.

Thank you for causing me to look it up. I was doing this by memory, and at my age, that is not wise. The quote is"And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure." The word buffet you see as a demon going before him? This was never that important for me to understand, so I always thought it was part of his sinful nature that kept coming back to haunt him.

I was not arguing against healing here, just asking for clarification.

[nChrist]

Yes, Christians do get sick, but it isn't God's will. He has given us the ability to be healed---every one of us who know Jesus Christ. Everything we need is in our born again spirits. We just have to tap into it with our intellect---our souls---and our body will respond. Believe by faith.

As for Paul, who knew exactly how to have victory over sickness, the thorn was not an illness.

The reality is that every single Christian throughout history has gotten sick and eventually died from illness or disease (except war, violence, etc.). So, are you saying that they all lacked faith? Paul's thorn in the flesh was an illness. Regardless, your stance contradicts the Holy Bible. You have to remember that little thing that happened with Adam, Eve, and the garden (the fall of man). Obviously, we don't have the ability or power to heal ourselves - regardless of how much faith we have. Did you consider the Scripture I quoted? Here it is again for you. Is the Holy Bible in error?

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Is the above portion of Scripture in error? If so, I can quote many more for you that indicate the same conditions for man. If you ignore what the Holy Bible says, you still have the reality of 100% certainty of serious illness and eventual death. Surely, you must be aware of strong Christians who get cancer, diabetes, other chronic illnesses and eventual die. As Christians, we don't have our glorified bodies yet, and we won't in this short life. Until then, we will have illness, disease, and death.

We have it within us as Christians the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, and all provision for healing and overcoming. When we are beset by illness, we have the wherewithal to gain healing--just as Paul had. To use the 'thorn' as a way to support the lie that God wants any of us sick is against Him and is a tick in Satan's box.

No, we most obviously do NOT have this kind of power. If we did there would be many millions of VERY OLD CHRISTIANS. The vast majority of Christians have health insurance and go to the doctor just like the lost. We also go to the hospital when we are very ill, just like the lost. We also eventually get an illness or disease that will be fatal, just like the lost. To say otherwise would be to contradict REALITY and the Holy Bible.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 KJV 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Look up the word "infirmities" and see what you come up with. Look it up in English and in Greek just to make sure you know what it means. If you come up with sickness, illness, or disease, you're getting close. God's Word does not tell us the specifics of the Apostle Paul's sickness, illness, or disease, but Scripture makes it plain that whatever it was bothered Paul to the extent that he feared it would hinder his ministry.

If you know of a place where many 1,500 year-old Christians live, please let me know where I can go and visit a place where Christians are using this power you speak of. I'll save you the time of looking - not one 1,500 year-old Christian exists because they all died many years ago from illness or disease. Frankly, you have a position that's impossible to defend because of reality. I'm weary of arguing the obvious, so I'm withdrawing from this thread. I'll leave you with three portions of Scripture that deal with afflictions, and you have the last word. In the meantime, there is REALITY to consider.

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 KJV 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation. 8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: 9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: 10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; 11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

Romans 8:16-28 KJV The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. 26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2 Corinthians 5:1-21 KJV 1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[Floatingaxe]

No, we most obviously do NOT have this kind of power.

The truth is that we do have this power within us---it is ours at the point of salvation when God comes to dwell within our spirit. The unfortunate thing is that Christians down through the ages have neglected this truth. The same faith we exercise to become born again is the same faith we use for healing. god doesn't lead us into sin, nor does he bring sickness upon us. He does, however, give us the promise of healing and His supernatural power to overcome illness. It is within us. It is only a matter of our mind and body tapping into it---our minds receive it and our mouths speak the truth so that our ears hear it, producing faith (Romans 10:17). Then, our bodies appropriate it accordingly.

Ephesians 1:3

All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ.

[Guest]

No, we most obviously do NOT have this kind of power.

The truth is that we do have this power within us---it is ours at the point of salvation when God comes to dwell within our spirit. The unfortunate thing is that Christians down through the ages have neglected this truth. The same faith we exercise to become born again is the same faith we use for healing. god doesn't lead us into sin, nor does he bring sickness upon us. He does, however, give us the promise of healing and His supernatural power to overcome illness. It is within us. It is only a matter of our mind and body tapping into it---our minds receive it and our mouths speak the truth so that our ears hear it, producing faith (Romans 10:17). Then, our bodies appropriate it accordingly.

Ephesians 1:3

All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ.

I'm curious about something. Do you expect to never physically die? I ask because that's what its sounding like to me.

[Floatingaxe]

No, we most obviously do NOT have this kind of power.

The truth is that we do have this power within us---it is ours at the point of salvation when God comes to dwell within our spirit. The unfortunate thing is that Christians down through the ages have neglected this truth. The same faith we exercise to become born again is the same faith we use for healing. god doesn't lead us into sin, nor does he bring sickness upon us. He does, however, give us the promise of healing and His supernatural power to overcome illness. It is within us. It is only a matter of our mind and body tapping into it---our minds receive it and our mouths speak the truth so that our ears hear it, producing faith (Romans 10:17). Then, our bodies appropriate it accordingly.

Ephesians 1:3

All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ.

I'm curious about something. Do you expect to never physically die? I ask because that's what its sounding like to me.

That would be a dumb thing to believe, now, wouldn't it? It is obvious that you are missing the truth in what I am saying.

Hebrews 9:27

And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment,

[Guest]

I posted a question and didn't make it clear it was tongue in cheek - sorry about that.

I closed the thread temporarily so I could reply properly since I was almost late in heading to work. People age, get sick, and in time death claims the lost and the saved alike as Solomon said in Ecclesiastes.

nChrist already posted scripture on the subject and I see no reason to continue arguing a point in which no one's mind is going to be changed.

I do hope you saw in the video that Piper was not bashing healing, etc. that comes from living life in Christ -- but was explaining why he detests the false teaching about prosperity that's out there collectively called the prosperity gospel.

Edited March 16, 2012 by walla299