Islam in America

[Oh Hamburgers!]

https://www.google.c...iw=1280&bih=675

You so realize that one to the terrorist acts they are against is how we treat Muslims after 9/11? Your link also provides information about Muslims against Allah and Muslims against the Koran. How creditable do you think these sites are? Other site use just paper to send memos. Where is their actions? They protect in the streets for their cause, to further Islam in countries, so where are these people protesting in the streets against the terrorists?

Point is, I can write whatever I feel like writing and still do nothing to back my words.

https://www.google.c...iw=1280&bih=894

[OneLight]

https://www.google.c...iw=1280&bih=675

You so realize that one to the terrorist acts they are against is how we treat Muslims after 9/11? Your link also provides information about Muslims against Allah and Muslims against the Koran. How creditable do you think these sites are? Other site use just paper to send memos. Where is their actions? They protect in the streets for their cause, to further Islam in countries, so where are these people protesting in the streets against the terrorists?

Point is, I can write whatever I feel like writing and still do nothing to back my words.

All I get when I go to that link is a bunch of pictures on Google.

If the Muslims you mentioned are against Allah and/or the Quran, then they are not actually Muslims. Without Allah and the Quran, you don't have Islam, and if you do not believe and follow either one, you are not a Muslim. That would be like having a group that called itself "Christians against Christ."

There are those who call themselves Christians, but do not accept Christ ... ... though I understand what you are saying.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think you're twisting what I said, because that was not my intent.

I understand your intent. I am not speaking to your intent. I am speaking to your logic and showing you why your argument simply has no credibility in real life.

I had already acknowledged there are some clear cut cases, but not every situation is as stark as you describe it.

Doesn’t matter. It doesn’t work that way. And I don’t recall you ever claiming that there were “clear cut cases.” If God is the ONLY one who knows as you claim, then there are no clear cut cases.

Suppose the man who raped molested and beat decided to try and turn his life around and began turning to religion. His life says the opposite given his history, but is he now a Christian? How do we know he's not just saying he's Christian or if he truly repents his past? What about a struggling alcoholic that occasionally falls into bad habits but is trying to change. Obviously he's sinning and continuing to sin from time to time. Is he Christian? These are rhetorical questions of course, God's the only one that knows the answer.

That is false. In the Bible, we are given indicators to know if someone is truly a follower of Jesus or not. The books of I John, II John and III John are very good at that. The Bible doesn’t say that only God knows who is or is not a believer. Many who live in sin try to avoid accountability and having to face up to their sin by claiming that no one can know. They also muddy the water as to what sin is. The fact is, we can know and we know by the fruit their lives produce.

All I'm trying to say is people are not either black or white; people are a mix and always have been. It's the same with everyone regardless of religion. Some people are good, some people are bad, most people are a mix of good and bad. Some people interpret their religion one way, others interpret it another way. Think of all the different sects of Christianity - think of all the versions of the Bible alone! You might think only some of them are "true" Christians, but all of the sects believe themselves also to be true christians.

Once again, same with Islam - we have sunnis and shi'ites & fundamentalist and moderates and everyone has slight variations regarding what they believe and what they value from their religion. Religion is something that is experienced differently from person to person, saying all muslims believe the same things is like saying all christians believe the same things - which is certainly not the case.

I understand what you are trying to say. But what you are trying to say is wrong. You are trying to present Islam as being typical of other ideaologies and it isn’t. You keep bringing up the myth of “moderate” Muslims and no such creature exists. Muslims do not refer to themselves as moderates or radicals. They do not refer to themselves as liberals or conservatives or any other western designation. They are either Sunni or Shiite and those do not come in different flavors. Saudi Arabia is a Sunni Muslim nation and our government labeled them “moderate,” but the Saudis bankroll terrorism and it well known and something they don’t necessarily make a secret of.

The ruling Fatah government of the West Bank is “moderate” according to the State Dept. but Fatah is the old terrorist organization known as the PLO headed up by terrorist leader Yasir Arafat. The late Lybian leader Quadafi was consdered a “moderate” but was despotic terrorist mastermind. There are plenty of groups out there that bear the western label of “moderate” but are in fact intimately connected to and involved in terrorism. You need to get a clue and wake up to reality and stop living in the liberal fog of misinformation.

I think your premise that Islam doesn't have it's own internal conflicts is simply not true.

And I think you need to do a better job at actually reading what I said, because I never stated such a premise. Check your facts and stop assigning false values to me.

My whole point in this thread has been to make distinctions between the different types of muslims because I don't think it is fair to wrap all of them up into the same group who are dangerous to America.

My point is that your attempt to make such distinctions simply doesn’t hold water. Islam doesn’t know anything about radical or moderate Muslims.

You are trying to define Islam by a few people who are Muslim in name only but don’t actually observe their religion. I know some of those kind as well. The problem is that I don’t hold them up as being authentic Muslims. I look to countries like Egypt, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. to view what Islam is REALLY like. You can’t do that and maintain your position. That is why your position lacks any credibilty. You are using the wrong standard of measurement. You are not looking at the despotic nature of Islam as it is practiced in other countries, even in no Arab Muslim countries like Idonesia which has slaughtered over 100, 000 Timorese Christians. I look at Muslims in Nigera that killed hundreds of Christians in day over a Miss World Contest that the Christians had nothing to do with. Those were not acts of terrorism, they were acts of Islam. They were acts that the liberals in America want to brush under the rug in any discussion of Islam because it is the middle east and Central Asia that we see the TRUE face Islam. It is in history that we see the true face of Islam when we read about how Islam brutalized peolpes all ove the world and forced people to convert to Islam or die.

There's a bunch of quotes that talk about following the teaching of Jesus, Abraham, etc. They do seem to have some bits and pieces of the same message.

But that is not the point! If they have the same God and parts of the same message, there is that degree of commonality, why do they kill any one for following Jesus??? The logic simply doesn’t follow.

The problem is that they assent to some cosmetic similarities, but when it comes to substance, Christianity and Islam are miles apart. Christianity is the polar opposite because Islam doesn’t accept Jesus as God’s Son. Islam doesn’t accept Jesus as God. Islam doesn’t believe that Jesus actually died on the cross, therefore, doesn’t believe in the resurrection. In Christianity when we put our faith in Christ, we enter into a relationship with Him as God. We are indwelt by His Spirit and are recreated spiritually (II Cor. 5:17). We have a relationship with God. Muslims have no loving relationship with Allah. Allah is not a loving redeemer that gave his life for world. Only Jesus, our true God, did that. We put our faith in a God who gave His life for us to guarantee us a place in heaven. That is far greater different than Islam.

Islam is about being a “good” Muslim. You have to offset your bad deeds with good ones because one day you will be judged and if your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds you will go to heaven. It’s like the judge saying to you, “you murdered your parents, but you were a good Boy Scout leader, so I will let you off the hook for murder. In Islam, if your good deeds don’t outweigh your bad ones, you will still go to hell even if you lived as a good Muslims for 25 years.

But in Christianity, the standard isn’t “goodness” but “righteousness.” Christians are not judged by how "good" we are. Lot's of "good" people go to hell. God's standard isn't about how good you are, but whether or not you have received Jesus and have been found righteous as a result. Righteousness means to be justified to be put in right-standing. We are placed in right-standing with God by faith in Christ in spite of our sinfulness. Jesus paid for our sins and now offers us a free gift of eternal life on the basis of HIS works/deeds, and not our own. He has borne the penalty of the Father’s justice for us and the freedom he offers is freely ours for the taking. Islam has NOTHING like that.

So you might find a few cosmetic similarities, but when it comes to substance, Christianity is as different from Islam as night and day.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

It doesn't matter what people "call" themselves. Lots of people call themselves Christians when they are not Christians, and couldn't even tell you what it meant to be one. The term means something, and it has a clear definition that does not change simply because a person wants to wear the label and views Christianity differently than someone else. You have to believe and do specific things to be a Christian.

Do you have a specific list? I always thought that believing in Jesus as the son of God & savior of man & trying to avoid sin was what it took to be Christian.

Advocating and practicing genocide would place one outside of those requirements and make one not actually what they claim to be. That is not logic that is dificult to understand, but it is logic that seems to elude you. Let's try it again:

The Bible: Does not teach or advocate killing.

The Quran: Teaches and advocates killing.

Actually there are many bible verses that advocate killing. I don't want to change the topic too much off of Islam or put Christianity in question, but I'd be happy to provide some passages if you prefer.

If your "moderate" Muslims really are sincere in their opposition to violent militants within their chosen faith, they would speak out against it, and they would leave the Muslim faith, because death and destruction is built into it, and has been practiced by them since the religions inception.

That is what my point was when I linked google images of muslims against terrorism... it shows people who appear to be muslims protesting against violence, terrorism etc. IE some ARE speaking out against it.

[jasoncran]

hamburger pm me. i will speak on this matter in private. i dont want to debate what i saw or did in country.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

I understand your intent. I am not speaking to your intent. I am speaking to your logic and showing you why your argument simply has no credibility in real life.

Doesn’t matter. It doesn’t work that way. And I don’t recall you ever claiming that there were “clear cut cases.” If God is the ONLY one who knows as you claim, then there are no clear cut cases.

I suppose we're at an impass, you assert you're right and you've proven my argument false; I feel like I've done the same to yours. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I don't think what I've been trying to convey has been fully grasped, and I have probably misconstrued what you've meant as well.

I understand what you are trying to say. But what you are trying to say is wrong. You are trying to present Islam as being typical of other ideaologies and it isn’t. You keep bringing up the myth of “moderate” Muslims and no such creature exists.

You say it isn't similar to other ideolgies, I say it is.

Are you seperating Islam because it has had violence in it's history? Same with almost all other religions (probably all).

Are you seperating Islam because it tries to gain new followers and denies the truth behind other relgions? Same with almost all other religions.

This is a fundamental issue and I've yet to be persuaded on why Islam should be viewed as so different from almost all the other world religions. It is not just an issue of Sunnis Vs Shiites, because I already linked a wikipedia page showing how many different splits and factions there are in Islam. Does that not prove that muslims interpret the Qur'an differently, and naturally there are some fundamental differences between the different branches, much like the different branches in Christianity? Is it not so hard to believe that there are many muslims that are primarilly secular with varying degress of belief in their faith, just like Christianity.

Give me one good reason that Islam & all of it's followers is SO DIFFERENT from every other religion out there that it defies similar practices amongst other religions. I have given plenty of examples of how Islam has similarities to Christianity already.

So we can assert our opinion about Islam all day but lets see some facts, preferably backed up with some evidence.

You are trying to define Islam by a few people who are Muslim in name only but don’t actually observe their religion. I know some of those kind as well. The problem is that I don’t hold them up as being authentic Muslims. I look to countries like Egypt, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc. to view what Islam is REALLY like. You can’t do that and maintain your position. That is why your position lacks any credibilty.

Looking at Iran and basing Islam off their policies would be like looking at America and basing Christianity off our policies. IE it would be a very poor indicator.

But that is not the point! If they have the same God and parts of the same message, there is that degree of commonality, why do they kill any one for following Jesus??? The logic simply doesn’t follow.

But.. not all of them kill for following Jesus! In fact most don't! If they did Muslims would be murdering people in this country left and right! I agree, the logic simply doesn't follow.

The problem is that they assent to some cosmetic similarities, but when it comes to substance, Christianity and Islam are miles apart. Christianity is the polar opposite because Islam doesn’t accept Jesus as God’s Son. Islam doesn’t accept Jesus as God. Islam doesn’t believe that Jesus actually died on the cross, therefore, doesn’t believe in the resurrection. In Christianity when we put our faith in Christ, we enter into a relationship with Him as God. We are indwelt by His Spirit and are recreated spiritually (II Cor. 5:17). We have a relationship with God. Muslims have no loving relationship with Allah. Allah is not a loving redeemer that gave his life for world. Only Jesus, our true God, did that. We put our faith in a God who gave His life for us to guarantee us a place in heaven. That is far greater different than Islam.

Every religion outside of Christianity doesn't accept Jesus as God's son. In fact between Judaism & Islam, Islam believes at least Jesus was a messenger; Judaism believes Jesus was a false prophet.

As a Israel advocate, does that concern you? All three are abrahamic religions after all.

[Oh Hamburgers!]

You would have to be able to demonstrate that the people mentioned actually believed in Jesus. We are told we can know people by their fruit, what they do, how they act. A person who truly believed in Jesus and was following His teachings would not advocate nor practice wholesale slaughter. You can keep trying to forward this idea that just saying you are a Christian is as good as being one, but it won't float. And since you are not a Christian yourself, you are unable to even define the terms of what being a Christian is or is not. The church is not to spread the gospel with violence.

So who's going to tell all those people that think they are Christians that they aren't? Who's authorized to do this? I've always agreed that there are those who think they are Christians but God is the only know knows for sure. That's never been my argument, I've just stated that there is no good way to weed the "good" from the "bad" in the faith and be able to stand by it 100% as a human, and I still stand by that.

Actually there are many bible verses that advocate killing. I don't want to change the topic too much off of Islam or put Christianity in question, but I'd be happy to provide some passages if you prefer.

I knew you would float this theory as well. People always do when they think they cannot lend creedence to their defense any other way. First of all, you cannot draw a parallel between God's instructions to one distinct group of people, in this case the Israelites, at one distinct point in time, i.e. the Exodus and apply it to the church. God commanded the Israelites to destroy certain groups of people in the land of Canaan for spiritual reasons you would not understand. Those instructions did not apply to Gentiles and they do not apply to the church or Christians. Israel was not just raoming around killing groups of people they picked at random because they were a different religion and wouldn't convert.

Two things:

1) So you use context in the Bible to deny the approval of violence by God, yet the context in the Qur'an is ignored? Afterall Mohammad was moving armies & conquering land during the time, why could you not make the same claim if you were muslim? This seems like a classic double standard.

2) If parts of the Bible do not have place in today's world, why are they in the Bible? Isn't the Bible to be God's timeless law? Or are you saying that parts of the Bible don't need to be honored today?

Your knowledge of Islam is minimal. Just using the phrase "I linked Google images" is like saying "I read on Wiki."

And yet you don't acknowledge that the pictures clearly show people who appear to be muslims denouncing violence and terrorism. The source has nothing to do with it, they are pictures.

[other one]

You say none of those acts have biblical support but that's merely your interpretation, which is the crux of the issue. Not all Muslims interpret the Koran in the same way as the loons who ban all literature, music and culture, who turn women into beasts and lie to their enemies. The fact is that there are plenty of Muslims who don't subscribe to that view just as there are many Christians who do use the bible to justify evil. Hitler claimed he was doing God's work, just as thousands of Muslims claim the same. As for there being no biblical instruction to commit genocide or keep slaves: http://www.biblegate... 15&version=NIV , http://www.biblegate...-46&version=NIV , those would beg to differ. So there's Hitler and the slave traders off the hook. So don't give me your pathetic "this is a fact that it says this in the Qu'ran" and completely ignore uncomfortable quotes from the Bible. Both books give people the opportunity to exploit them and do great evil, just as both have the power to do great good in the world.

The Christian America statement, I forgot that everyone in a country had to be a Christian for it to be a Christian country, there was me thinking Egypt was a Muslim country. Facts are that every American President ends their speech with God Bless America, every President has been a Christian, the McCain campaign went to many lengths to try and prove that Obama was not a Christian and was in fact a Muslim in an attempt to smear his campaign. I'm aware of your secular constitution but it's hard to argue that America is not Christian in outlook. Bush was even prayeing to God for advice on weather to go to war or not. That said I do admit that the US do not act to advance a worldwide Christian agenda akin to the Spanish Conquistadores, so yeah, I agree with you it was a false premise.

I would disagree with you that every president has been a christian....... Hitler was A Catholic, not a Christian (read Tom Horn's latest book to get a very detailed explanation of that). Those people who claim to be moderate Muslims either are either mis representing Islam to you, or they have not really gotten into their religion.

One must remember that the Koran was not written as a book until later in history. Mohammad (who was illerate) had other people write the things the entity that he thought was from allah had told him... They were on individual pieces of paper and stuffed into a big Jar. There are other writings from the people around mohammad had heard him say. These would be in the Hadiths.

The Koran was put together not in any tiime written format, but simply from the shortest saying to the last...... there are changes in what Mahammad had written from his days in Meca. When he moved to Medina, his tactics on spreading Islam went from peaceful preaching to voilent force...... and his so called messages from Allah changed. One has to study them in time order to see the true picture of Islam today. No serious study of the Koran could not take that into account. so these so called moderate Muslims are either mis informing you, or they really don't know what they are talking about.

[OneLight]

Closing this thread. I really don't like where it went. Those who follow Allah and reject Christ will succumb to what their faith tells them to do, which is not of God, so the outcome is obvious.