is it sin?

[wordsower]

Az,

If by my statements you thought I was suggesting you did not choose to follow Jesus I am sorry. That was not the intent of my statement.

You can choose to take actions. But you cannot choose what you feel. Could you choose not to love Jesus? I can't imagine how you would go about it. What you feel is who you are. It can change over time as your experiences change but it is not something you can directly choose.

Now in regards to my comments a homosexual cannot choose to not be attracted to whatever they are attracted to. They can choose whether to act upon their attractions. And the basis of that choice is dependent on the issues and factors that they believe guide such questions of morality. If they believe that acting on their homosexual inclinations is against the will of God then it is a choice they must deal with. But whether they are attracted to a person of the same sex is not a thing they can choose anymore than you or I could choose to change who we are attracted to.

I didn't think you were suggesting that we don't follow Jesus, I was just making the point that we make that decision and everything that goes along with it. That is why we don't make the decision lightly, we consider the cost and it may be the cost of an extremely different lifestyle.

You can choose to ignore what you feel and Jesus can change what you feel.

I felt very attracted to partying all weekend and getting drunk in the bar and whatever else nonsense I could find to get into before I got saved. I chose Jesus over that lifestyle and I no longer am attracted to it.

Jesus has power to change us from the inside out and He changes our desires and our actions by His grace.

My homosexual brother in law chose to give himself to the Lord before he died and I believe he had a growing relationship with the Lord in that last year. I saw a huge change in him.

God is still doing miracles today, really He is!!

[Fr Chuck]

The act of sexual intercourse between anyone but a man and a women who are married, is a sin.

This is very easy, since it is all listed in the Bible.

Churches who refuse to admit this are basicly turning away from the bible, so they can have more members and get thier weekly donations.

These are baislcy no longer christian churches, since they are refusing to accept the Bible as the word of God.

Good guide lines, If they teach things against the bible, they are not really Christian, no matter what the name on the door says.

[Guest JAR61]

I want to comment on the homosexual issue. Yes, I agree the behavior is sinful.

However, God is quick to show mercy and slow to anger. I do not believe it was the sin of homosexual conduct that destroyed the 2 cities. It was the sin of pride.

There is much sin in any society... Sodom and Gommorrah are no different.

It is when man, corporately... as a family, community, state or nation collectively shake their fist at God and tell Him to "get lost" ... that God's wrath is kindled.

Remember what was gambled" "if there be 100 men, 10 men one righteous man...would you save the city"? and GOd said, "yes"... It was the sin of pride.

The same happened in Gibeah where King Saul was born. People are not familiar with that story. It is the tale of a woman raped in a town of one of the 12 tribes and its kinsmen refused to surrender the rapist(s)... 10 of the tribes of Israel went up and the town was slaughtered for condoning the sin.

We must be careful to seperate human failings and the sin which results from the sin of pride.....

Pastor Jeff

[Guest JAR61]

Father Chuck, greetings in the name of Christ.

I want to start a dialogue concerning the issue of adultery. I am a student of the Old Testament and have studied this issue. In examining the Judaic marriage covenant, it consists of 3 components.

In Matthew 5 when jesus was tempted by the pharisees, when they asked him,

"is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife FOR ANY REASON"... Jesus retorted... save for the reason of adultery.

Later on, we learn, that 2 unevenly yoked persons can also be divorced.

In examing the Biblical perspective, there are appx. 10 terms which are used to define "adultery" most notably as used in Matthew, "pornea"...

9 of the 10 terms make absolutely no mention of marital infidelity. I raise this, because SCripture says that, David, Solomon, Gideon, Hanna's husband, Elkanah were all righteous inspite of having concubines.

The arugment for this has been that of "culture" which is a blasphemous excuse for we know that the Law was given and if the Law can be influenced by culture than the sin of homosexuality is no longer a sin in our culture.

Those men of Scripture were not guilty of adultery because the term does not mean what man portends it does... Adultery has more to do with non-loving, wanton, abandoned whoredom...

Whereas, these men loved their wives. There are 3 types of love:

Eros, Philial and Agape...

For the sakeof discussion, lets focus on the original definitions of adultery and compare it to eros love.

[Budman]

It is when man, corporately... as a family, community, state or nation collectively shake their fist at God and tell Him to "get lost" ... that God's wrath is kindled.

That sure seems to be happening with the nations today. Look at England for example. Once very powerful and respected, now, due to the country shaking their collective fist at God and telling Him to "get lost", they are a crumbling entity. Church attendance is at a record low, the crime rate at a record high, with the criminals being coddled far worse than in the US.

"Tolerance" is the name of the game. (Tolerance for everyone except the Christians that is).

Speak out against anti-Christian religions, homosexuality, abortion, etc., and you get branded a "hate monger" preaching "hate speech".

Now America is walking down that same path.

And it's just a matter of time before the United States walks off that same cliff.

warm regards

-bud

[jesussaves]

yes...sexual immorality of any kind...including homosexuality...is a sin. People who do not want to repent of their sin have always tried to find ways to justify their behaviour...but the Word of God is very clear on living holy...pure...born again lives if we want to see Jesus.

Yes, we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. Yes, we were all in need of a Saviour to change our lives. Transform us and help us to put the old man from our sinful lives behind us, bring our bodies under the subjection of the Holy Spirit and crucify the flesh...all of us who believe in Jesus. The Lord made no exceptions. His Word is the way to live a life of correction through the Spirits direction.

Anyone who is gay needs only repent, ask the Lord to be Lord and then trust Him change that sinful lifestyle and bring deliverence. He is able...but are you willing?

Jesus saves.

[kittyjo]

QUOTE(Az_ @ Oct 25 2004, 03:52 PM)

How exactly do you choose what you are attracted to?

The same way you make any other freewill choice. You examine the options and make a decision as to which is more attractive to you.

Which still raises the issue of how do you choose what is more attractive to you.

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For those who maintain the idea that homosexuality is biological, here is an article by Dr. Willaim P. Wilson, with information that explains why many believe that it is not....

Homosexuality

by William P. Wilson, M.D.

-- Commentaries from past newsletters --

Click Here

Edited October 29, 2004 by kittyjo

[Frank]

Do not kid yourself. Homosexuality is a sin and it is well stated in the bible. I don't believe that there are people born homosexuals. It is just the nature of their upbringing and their sorrounding that contributes to one being gay. The purpose of sex was for procreation and fulfilment between a married man and woman. That was why God created Eve for Adam(and not another man).

May God provide you with the answers you seek in your quest for more clarification.

[Budman]

I also agree that homosexuals are not "born that way."

Like any sin, it is a choice.

And like any sin, people will use any and all means to try to justify it.

warm regards

-bud

[Guest JAR61]

"What you feel is who you are"?.... Whoa.... then I guess you believe Scripture lies? Scripture says... so as a man thinks... not feels... repentance is the remedy from erroneous thinking which leads to action. We are told that the carnal heart is a wicked thing... so this is what a carnal man ends up with: A sensual heart guided by wrongful thinking... leading to sinful conduct.

Scripture says that when we recieve Christ, in baptism we die to the Old Man and put on the new...

AZ... if this is the kind of thing you teach others, then I strongly suggest you read the Scriptures with the blessing of the Holy Spirit..... everything you have said so far is against everything Scripture teaches.

I also worked for 2 years with AIDS patients and have a heart for their anguish... thing is.. if they had Christ before allowing another man to have anal intercourse, filled with a disease that is 100% preventable... sometimes many men.... they would have had life and had it more abundantly.....

There is nothing noble in being a homosexual.... and their is nothing that we as Christians need to accept as far as their conduct and minds which lead them astray.

We are to love them as people and bring them to a SAVING knowledge...

What destroyed Sodom and GOmmorah was pride not homosexuality..... it is the pride of the homosexual community which allows the disease to spread....

If someone tells you having multiple sex partners is dangerous and you do it... what should we expect?

It may sound harsh... but the same goes for married men who lead adulterous lives....

Another thing... for you to say.... "one can't helpas one feels" says that God doesnt know what He is doing and makes mistakes...... If Scripture says that homosexuality is an abomination, then God doesnt create a man with abberant desires... it IS environmental... and the proof of that is the 1,000s of homosexauls who come out of the lifestyle after counseling and spiritual development....

If 1 can change.... if 100 can change... if 1000 can change... then all can change...

Pastor Jeff

Respectfully, we, as beleivers choose to follow Christ.

If by my statements you thought I was suggesting you did not choose to follow Jesus I am sorry. That was not the intent of my statement.

You can choose to take actions. But you cannot choose what you feel. Could you choose not to love Jesus? I can't imagine how you would go about it. What you feel is who you are. It can change over time as your experiences change but it is not something you can directly choose.

Now in regards to my comments a homosexual cannot choose to not be attracted to whatever they are attracted to. They can choose whether to act upon their attractions. And the basis of that choice is dependent on the issues and factors that they believe guide such questions of morality. If they believe that acting on their homosexual inclinations is against the will of God then it is a choice they must deal with. But whether they are attracted to a person of the same sex is not a thing they can choose anymore than you or I could choose to change who we are attracted to.

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