is Jesus God

[Rascus]

Yes Jesus is God........God the Father.....God the Son.....God The Holy Spirit! In scripture there is a verse where Jesus speaking to the Apostles I believe, where He tells them the that if they have seen Him, that they have seen the Father....what do you take out of that saying?

God Bless....Rascus

Edited September 5, 2012 by Rascus

[JCISGD]

If Jesus is not God, then i know not who is? God has chosen to reveal Himself to us in various ways, but primarily and most fully through Jesus the Son of God. The capital (S) in Son denotes same in character and essence, hence why Jesus says " if you see me, you see the Father" and "no one comes to the Father but through me"

Without the Son we are back to the OT where God was largely veiled to us, on account of our sin seperating us and unpaid for.

[gdemoss]

If Jesus is not God, then i know not who is?

Amen Brother! Though one must understand why John 17:3 says: (bolding mine)

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

God has chosen to reveal Himself to us in various ways, but primarily and most fully through Jesus the Son of God.

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

The capital (S) in Son denotes same in character and essence, hence why Jesus says " if you see me, you see the Father" and "no one comes to the Father but through me"

This sounds good but I am not sure that it is Gods work but instead mans trying to help us understand. I have heard it said that the phrase Son of God or Son of man means having the characteristics of. Jesus being both was simply the Lord from heaven put in a human body embodying the form of man with the nature of God.

Without the Son we are back to the OT where God was largely veiled to us, on account of our sin seperating us and unpaid for.

The lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Sin was basically prepaid though actual payment wasn't realized until Calvary. Some in the OT enjoyed intimate fellowship with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit but, your right, not many for sure. The veil is an interesting thing. It was once in the tabernacle then in the temple as well as Moses was the veil as he reflected the glory of God which fades away, that being the glory of God reflected in man who lives under the OT covenant. Then Jesus' flesh became the veil, where the spirit of God, the fullness of the divinity rested upon him and spoke through him, revealing himself unto the world around him, being in the world while having made the world. Upon the veil, that is to say his body, being torn, the door was opened unto us to become the veil that others might see and know God in us or Christ in us the hope of glory. In the end when Jesus has delivered up the kingdom, which means having brought it in subjection unto himself and given it over to the Father to be God over, there will be no more veil but God the Father will be among us and be our God, Jesus present also.

Rev 21:22 ¶ And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

What a glorious day that will be, when we all are with God without a veil!

Gary

[JCISGD]

#142 hi Gary, i think we are mostly on the same page. My post was mostly intended for those who deny Christ was God in a human body. Fully man and fully God. My point about God being revealed in graduations, was in terms of the human race. We are in agreement that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, but we are creatures in chronos time and can see that Gods personality was obscured somewhat untill Jesus was sent to us.

God bless

Arthur.

[gdemoss]

#142 hi Gary, i think we are mostly on the same page. My post was mostly intended for those who deny Christ was God in a human body. Fully man and fully God. My point about God being revealed in graduations, was in terms of the human race. We are in agreement that Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world, but we are creatures in chronos time and can see that Gods personality was obscured somewhat untill Jesus was sent to us.

God bless

Arthur.

[other one]

"Yeshua said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?" Is Yeshua declaring that he is Father Yahweh? Heb.1:3 and Col.1:15 both state that Yeshua is the "image" of Yahweh. An image is something that resembles something else. Yeshua resembles Yahweh in that their characters are almost identical. "Not that any man has seen the Father" (Jn. 6:46) bodily, but we have seen His character through His Son.

It is not possible that Yahweh is the Father. Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain and saw the God of Israel (which was/is Yahweh)....... however Jesus tells us that no man has seen the Father.

So either Moses or Jesus is not being strait with us, or Yehweh is not the Father.

[gdemoss]

"Yeshua said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?" Is Yeshua declaring that he is Father Yahweh? Heb.1:3 and Col.1:15 both state that Yeshua is the "image" of Yahweh. An image is something that resembles something else. Yeshua resembles Yahweh in that their characters are almost identical. "Not that any man has seen the Father" (Jn. 6:46) bodily, but we have seen His character through His Son.

It is not possible that Yahweh is the Father. Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain and saw the God of Israel (which was/is Yahweh)....... however Jesus tells us that no man has seen the Father.

So either Moses or Jesus is not being strait with us, or Yehweh is not the Father.

Excellent points Sam, may I add somethings to further your thought?

Oh how terribly difficult it is to comprehend! but oh so beautiful once it is understood.

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [[but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Have ye the Son? Have ye the Father? Where is the veil?

Oh blessed Father! Show thyself unto the world through your temple made without hands. Have you seen the Father? Do you know the Son? I come to the garden alone while the dew is still on the roses.

Yes, it is confusing until understanding sets in. One must ask, why did Peter write to those who were already believers and tell them:

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

I confess, I am not the Christ but I have Christ in me, oh glorious day! Take heed....take heed unto the prophecy. There is much more than simply understanding words on a page in a book. Take heed....please I beseech you by the mercies of Christ...take heed.

Come Lord Jesus....

Gary

[other one]

"Yeshua said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?" Is Yeshua declaring that he is Father Yahweh? Heb.1:3 and Col.1:15 both state that Yeshua is the "image" of Yahweh. An image is something that resembles something else. Yeshua resembles Yahweh in that their characters are almost identical. "Not that any man has seen the Father" (Jn. 6:46) bodily, but we have seen His character through His Son.

It is not possible that Yahweh is the Father. Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain and saw the God of Israel (which was/is Yahweh)....... however Jesus tells us that no man has seen the Father.

So either Moses or Jesus is not being strait with us, or Yehweh is not the Father.

There is another option you did not mention; that Moses and Yeshua were being strait with us and Yahweh is the Father.

Who does scripture say is the Father? Is.63:16 says, "Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O Yahweh, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting." Yahweh is the Father. Yet, some might claim that this scripture says Yahweh is the Father of Israel, not of Yeshua. In that case we need to note two other verses. The first is Heb.1:5; "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Who said these things? All would agree that Yeshua's Father said them since He is referring to Yeshua as His Son. Heb.1:5 is a direct quote from Ps.2:7; "I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." The first "I" here refers to Yeshua speaking through prophecy in which he declares that Yahweh is his Father!

As for Ex 24:10-11, consider Num.12:6-8; "And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I Yahweh will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of Yahweh shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" Verse 6 tells us the normal way a person would see Yahweh is via a vision or dream. We see this in Ex.24:10,11 by the Hebrew words used; "And they saw the Elohim of Israel: and there was under His feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in His clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand: also they saw Elohim, and did eat and drink." In what way did they see the Elohim of Israel who is Yahweh?

The words translated "saw" in both verses can have several meanings. "Ra'ah" (Strong's #7200) is used far more than any other word for the act of a prophet when receiving Yahweh's word. (See Isa.6:1; Jer.1:11; Ezek.1:1). A derivative of "ra'ah", "ro'eh" (seer) is used as a name for a prophet. It suggests the act of receiving Yahweh's messages via visions and dreams. (See 1 Sam.9:9,11,18,19).

"Chazah" (#2372) is used of the revelatory visions granted by Yahweh to His chosen messengers. (See Num.24:4,16; Isa.1:1; Dan.2:26; Amos 1:1; Zech.10:2). A derivation of "chazah," "chozeh," was also used of prophets and translated "seer" as was 'ro'eh' (#7203). (See 2 Sam.24:11; 2 Chr.35:15).

The Scriptures declare that people have seen Elohim or have seen Yahweh. If it was not, in fact, an angel of Yahweh they were seeing, then they were seeing Yahweh in a vision or dream as Solomon did in 1 Kgs.11:9; 3:5; 9:2. They were certainly not seeing Him in all His glory with their naked eye (their normal vision).

they saw the God of Israel and were amazed that he did not lay a hand on them. They were expecting to be harmed for what they saw.

I'd suggest you take the Bible at it's face value. i don't have a problem with it...

[xBluxTunicx82]

Also consider the order of Melchezidek. It is apparent from stem to stern that Jesus Christ is our Creator. Don't let false prophets tell you anything that demotes our King and Savior to merely the Son of God. Or course He is just that, as born of the fleshly line of Adam through Seth on through Isaac and Jacob. Nonetheless, Adam was a 'son' of God, Lucifer was a 'son of God' and even through repentance and commitment to the Word, we can become Sons of God. So know the simple teachings of Jesus are truth, and never let any man tell you otherwise.

[other one]

"Yeshua said unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet have you not known me, Philip? he that has seen me has seen the Father; and how say you then, Show us the Father?" Is Yeshua declaring that he is Father Yahweh? Heb.1:3 and Col.1:15 both state that Yeshua is the "image" of Yahweh. An image is something that resembles something else. Yeshua resembles Yahweh in that their characters are almost identical. "Not that any man has seen the Father" (Jn. 6:46) bodily, but we have seen His character through His Son.

It is not possible that Yahweh is the Father. Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain and saw the God of Israel (which was/is Yahweh)....... however Jesus tells us that no man has seen the Father.

So either Moses or Jesus is not being strait with us, or Yehweh is not the Father.

Things are not always what they seem. For example;

In Genesis 32:24, when Jacob wrestled with a "man", he said he saw "Elohim face to face". Yet, in Hosea 12:3,4a, we find out it wasn't Elohim (Yahweh), but an angel that he wrestled with; "He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with Elohim: Yes, he had power over the angel, and prevailed:"

Here are some verses that tell us Elohim (God) has never been seen.

Exodus 33:20 - "And He said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

John 1:18 - "No man has seen Elohim at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared Him."

John 5:37 - "And the Father himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape."

John 6:46 - "Not that any man has seen the Father, save he which is of Elohim, he has seen the Father."

1 John 4:12 - "No man has seen Elohim at any time. If we love one another, Elohim dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us."

1Tim 1:17 - "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise Elohim, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen."

1 Tim 6:16 - " Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen."

Well I don't want to drag the thread into that word "God", but there is a large difference in the single word Elihim that Jaccob wresteled with and the definative "God of Israel".

The Bible tells us that there are many gods and many lords. Elohim is basically speaking of diety...... The Elohim of Israel is speaking spedifically about an individual diety.... and that diety happens to be Yehweh. And Moses (or whoever wrote Exodus) even went to make the point that they ate and drank so that we should know that it was not a vision, and made the comments that let us know that they would have expected to have been killed for what they saw.

So I do disagre with you about Yehweh being the Father.

Question????? who did Adam walk in the garden with? They heard God coming after they had eaten the fruit so God was there..... did he stay hidden behind a tree or something???