A thought...

[xero]

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[nChrist]

Please note VERY carefully. I didn't say the Church replaced Israel. I asked if the Church might be Zion. It is the True (invisible) Church from which proper instruction flows. You can't get proper teaching outside of the True (invisible) Church, because the Holy Spirit dwells within its members and the Holy Spirit is the ultimate dispenser of true teaching.

We are told in Scripture that the teaching (instruction or Torah if you prefer) will go forth from Zion, and the Word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Since the Church Invisible is the only carrier of true teaching, it makes sense that the Church is spiritually speaking like Zion(i.e. Where God can be found on earth and where one can find His Instruction).

Now you're talking about the Millenial rule and reign of Jesus Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. This is the Kingdom promised to Israel, and Jesus Christ Himself will be the King of Kings - subjecting all things beneath His Feet. This will happen after the Second Coming of Christ.

Isaiah 2:1-5 NASB The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. 5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Isaiah 9:2-7 NASB The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them. 3 You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest, As men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian. 5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Micah 4:1-3 NASB And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. 2 Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

[JohnD]

I pray for the peace of Jerusalem, the salvation of your people Israel.

I pray for the peace of New Jerusalem, the salvation of your people Spirit Israel.

Romans 2:28-29 (KJV)

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This is nothing new. In fact it is very old.

Deuteronomy 10:16 (KJV)

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Romans 9:6 (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Romans 2:28-29 (JohnDB)

28 For he is not a Spirit Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Spirit Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise (Jewishness) is not of men, but of God.

John 4:21-24 (KJV)

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Philippians 3:3 (KJV)

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 11:28 (KJV)

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

[xero]

You: Yew: Ewe: the Bride of the Lamb.

[Bold Believer]

Please note VERY carefully. I didn't say the Church replaced Israel. I asked if the Church might be Zion. It is the True (invisible) Church from which proper instruction flows. You can't get proper teaching outside of the True (invisible) Church, because the Holy Spirit dwells within its members and the Holy Spirit is the ultimate dispenser of true teaching.

We are told in Scripture that the teaching (instruction or Torah if you prefer) will go forth from Zion, and the Word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Since the Church Invisible is the only carrier of true teaching, it makes sense that the Church is spiritually speaking like Zion(i.e. Where God can be found on earth and where one can find His Instruction).

Now you're talking about the Millenial rule and reign of Jesus Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. This is the Kingdom promised to Israel, and Jesus Christ Himself will be the King of Kings - subjecting all things beneath His Feet. This will happen after the Second Coming of Christ.

Isaiah 2:1-5 NASB The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. 5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Isaiah 9:2-7 NASB The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them. 3 You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest, As men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian. 5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Micah 4:1-3 NASB And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. 2 Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

No argument there. It's that YOUR understanding of the thousand years and MY understanding of the thousand years differ. The people did stream to the 'Mountain of the LORD'. Christianity was the chief of the mountains. We who believe in Christ were pre-dominant, not that we outnumbered the others, but in our influence. And God DID judge many nations and judge between many peoples. Christianity's influence got people fed, clothed, housed, educated, healed. Great inventions came through Godly people. The world benefitted from the rise of Christianity.

Now that influence has waned. People no longer flock to the House of the LORD because they are again being blinded by Satan. They prefer the way of Satan and believe his lie.

[nChrist]

Please note VERY carefully. I didn't say the Church replaced Israel. I asked if the Church might be Zion. It is the True (invisible) Church from which proper instruction flows. You can't get proper teaching outside of the True (invisible) Church, because the Holy Spirit dwells within its members and the Holy Spirit is the ultimate dispenser of true teaching.

We are told in Scripture that the teaching (instruction or Torah if you prefer) will go forth from Zion, and the Word of the LORD from Jerusalem. Since the Church Invisible is the only carrier of true teaching, it makes sense that the Church is spiritually speaking like Zion(i.e. Where God can be found on earth and where one can find His Instruction).

Now you're talking about the Millenial rule and reign of Jesus Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. This is the Kingdom promised to Israel, and Jesus Christ Himself will be the King of Kings - subjecting all things beneath His Feet. This will happen after the Second Coming of Christ.

Isaiah 2:1-5 NASB The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. 3 And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they learn war. 5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

Isaiah 9:2-7 NASB The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them. 3 You shall multiply the nation, You shall increase their gladness; They will be glad in Your presence As with the gladness of harvest, As men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, The rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian. 5 For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Micah 4:1-3 NASB And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains. It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. 2 Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations. Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

No argument there. It's that YOUR understanding of the thousand years and MY understanding of the thousand years differ. The people did stream to the 'Mountain of the LORD'. Christianity was the chief of the mountains. We who believe in Christ were pre-dominant, not that we outnumbered the others, but in our influence. And God DID judge many nations and judge between many peoples. Christianity's influence got people fed, clothed, housed, educated, healed. Great inventions came through Godly people. The world benefitted from the rise of Christianity.

Now that influence has waned. People no longer flock to the House of the LORD because they are again being blinded by Satan. They prefer the way of Satan and believe his lie.

This hasn't happened yet - it's Bible Prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Obviously, the Second Coming of Christ has not happened yet and neither has the Rule and Reign of Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. These things will happen AFTER the seven year Tribulation Period - also FUTURE. The Scriptures are very plain and blunt on these issues. Another thing that HAS NOT happened yet is the Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 NASB 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 NASB 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

[Bold Believer]

nChrist wrote: (1)Obviously, the Second Coming of Christ has not happened yet (2)and neither has the Rule and Reign of Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. (3) These things will happen AFTER the seven year Tribulation Period - also FUTURE. The Scriptures are very plain and blunt on these issues.

(4)Another thing that HAS NOT happened yet is the Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ.

1. Right, that will occur on the Last Day, which according to Rev 20 is after the thousand years of Christ's rule and the war of Gog and Magog.

2. Wrong. You assume that the rule requires Christ to be on Earth. It doesn't. David's throne was in earthly Jerusalem. Christ's throne is in HEAVENLY Jerusalem with those saints who are the Church in New Jerusalem (Hebrews). Furthermore, we are specifically told in Acts 3:21 that heaven must receive Jesus until the time of restitution of all things, which doesn't occur until Rev 20, after the War of Gog and Magog when Jesus sends fire from heaven and kicks Satan's backside and tosses him and his motley lot into Gehenna. It's THEN that we get a renewed heaven and earth, not before.

3. Where does Scripture state that the time of tribulation is seven years? Dan 9:26 states that Messiah will be cut off (but not for hinself) after 69 weeks (which places that cutting off IN the 70th week). We're told that the people of the prince that shall come will destroy the city and sanctuary. The only prince mentioned is Messiah, so it is Messiah's people who destroy the city and sanctuary. (Messiah USES the Romans to carry out His judgment on rebellious Israel, just as God used other heathen nations to discipline Israel in the past.) Interestingly, Daniel uses a parenthetical statement about that. It almost seems like an afterthought, but he suddenly returns to the original thought about Messiah. He then tells us that Messiah will confirm the covenant with many and makes sacrifice and oblation cease in the middle of the week. (This was accomplished by Christ's death and resurrection, which made animal sacrifice cease to be effective.)

So we know that the ministry of Jesus was 3.5 years spent confirming the covenant. Then 40 years later, the prophecy is fulfilled in 3.5 years at the siege of Jerusalem. Two seperate 3.5 year periods nearly forty years apart. So then, where is this alleged seven years of tribulation? It doesn't exist.

4. You quote from the famous I Cor 15:49 and following passages attempting to apply them to 'The rapture'. If one follows the context however, you will see that Paul is referring to the resurrection of believers. Jesus tells us when this occurs in John 6. On the LAST DAY. When is the last day? We don't know. But we DO know from Paul's writings that one of the things that will occur on that day is that live Believers will be changed in the twinkling of an eye (I Cor 15:52) at the LAST TRUMP. Do you see the pattern here? LAST day. LAST trump. To attempt to place this event at ANY other point in time MAKES JESUS CHRIST OUT TO BE A LIAR.

[nChrist]

nChrist wrote: (1)Obviously, the Second Coming of Christ has not happened yet (2)and neither has the Rule and Reign of Christ from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. (3) These things will happen AFTER the seven year Tribulation Period - also FUTURE. The Scriptures are very plain and blunt on these issues.

(4)Another thing that HAS NOT happened yet is the Rapture of the Church which is the Body of Christ.

1. Right, that will occur on the Last Day, which according to Rev 20 is after the thousand years of Christ's rule and the war of Gog and Magog.

2. Wrong. You assume that the rule requires Christ to be on Earth. It doesn't. David's throne was in earthly Jerusalem. Christ's throne is in HEAVENLY Jerusalem with those saints who are the Church in New Jerusalem (Hebrews). Furthermore, we are specifically told in Acts 3:21 that heaven must receive Jesus until the time of restitution of all things, which doesn't occur until Rev 20, after the War of Gog and Magog when Jesus sends fire from heaven and kicks Satan's backside and tosses him and his motley lot into Gehenna. It's THEN that we get a renewed heaven and earth, not before.

3. Where does Scripture state that the time of tribulation is seven years? Dan 9:26 states that Messiah will be cut off (but not for hinself) after 69 weeks (which places that cutting off IN the 70th week). We're told that the people of the prince that shall come will destroy the city and sanctuary. The only prince mentioned is Messiah, so it is Messiah's people who destroy the city and sanctuary. (Messiah USES the Romans to carry out His judgment on rebellious Israel, just as God used other heathen nations to discipline Israel in the past.) Interestingly, Daniel uses a parenthetical statement about that. It almost seems like an afterthought, but he suddenly returns to the original thought about Messiah. He then tells us that Messiah will confirm the covenant with many and makes sacrifice and oblation cease in the middle of the week. (This was accomplished by Christ's death and resurrection, which made animal sacrifice cease to be effective.)

So we know that the ministry of Jesus was 3.5 years spent confirming the covenant. Then 40 years later, the prophecy is fulfilled in 3.5 years at the siege of Jerusalem. Two seperate 3.5 year periods nearly forty years apart. So then, where is this alleged seven years of tribulation? It doesn't exist.

4. You quote from the famous I Cor 15:49 and following passages attempting to apply them to 'The rapture'. If one follows the context however, you will see that Paul is referring to the resurrection of believers. Jesus tells us when this occurs in John 6. On the LAST DAY. When is the last day? We don't know. But we DO know from Paul's writings that one of the things that will occur on that day is that live Believers will be changed in the twinkling of an eye (I Cor 15:52) at the LAST TRUMP. Do you see the pattern here? LAST day. LAST trump. To attempt to place this event at ANY other point in time MAKES JESUS CHRIST OUT TO BE A LIAR.

Bold Believer,

You appear to be a preterist or at least a partial preterist, so we are in total disagreement. You are in disagreement with very basic Bible Prophecy, and many books have been written on the basic issues you disagree with. I don't have the desire to write a book here, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll simply state that the Rapture of the Church and the 7 Year Tribulation Period happens before the Second Coming of Christ. The Second Coming of Christ happens at the end of the 7 year Tribulation Period, and yes - it's obviously a 7 year period of time according to Scripture (see Daniel's Week of Years). The 1,000 year rule and reign of Christ after His Second Coming is just as basic. These things have NOT happened yet, but they will at God's Appointed Time. The Scripture I've already given you should be enough to get you started on basic Bible Prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet. In the meantime, we disagree.

[gdemoss]

When is the last day? We don't know.

The last day is the millennial reign as they are one in the same. A day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Set to begin shortly.

Gary

[Bold Believer]

When is the last day? We don't know.

The last day is the millennial reign as they are one in the same. A day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Set to begin shortly.

Gary

LOL. Taking a figurative expression for the timelessness of God and trying to equate it with the thousand years is ridiculous.