His_disciple3 Posted July 7, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 358 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 7, 2012 Especially in KJV the word "perfect" means "mature" in old english used at the time of the translation, not "perfection" as we think of today meaning without blemish or mistake. He's simply saying that in maturity of time it will happen. ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Especially in KJV the word "perfect" means "mature" in old english used at the time of the translation, not "perfection" as we think of today meaning without blemish or mistake. He's simply saying that in maturity of time it will happen. ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! The first thing you need to do is understand that you are reading a translation. That translation is using words from 1611 that have changed meaning over the centuries. I didn't say "mature" is a perfect translation into english, but it's much closer to the concept being conveyed than "without a mistake" as the word "perfect" has come to mean in modern english. Using a phrase like "completely ready" or "full & complete" might better explain the intent in some places.. Secondly, words have more than one meaning and the way they are used is more important than a static definition. Whether you like it or not, the word "perfect" is better translated as "mature" in most places where it is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His_disciple3 Posted July 7, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 358 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) Especially in KJV the word "perfect" means "mature" in old english used at the time of the translation, not "perfection" as we think of today meaning without blemish or mistake. He's simply saying that in maturity of time it will happen. ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! The first thing you need to do is understand that you are reading a translation. That translation is using words from 1611 that have changed meaning over the centuries. I didn't say "mature" is a perfect translation into english, but it's much closer to the concept being conveyed than "without a mistake" as the word "perfect" has come to mean in modern english. Using a phrase like "completely ready" or "full & complete" might better explain the intent in some places.. Secondly, words have more than one meaning and the way they are used is more important than a static definition. Whether you like it or not, the word "perfect" is better translated as "mature" in most places where it is used. so define this one to your specs matt. 5:48 , Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. be ye mature as your Father is mature again. Please!!!! I guess next we will have to change the meaning of Holy so that it will fit your teachings be ye Holy for I am Holy Edited July 7, 2012 by His_disciple3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted July 7, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Author Share Posted July 7, 2012 Especially in KJV the word "perfect" means "mature" in old english used at the time of the translation, not "perfection" as we think of today meaning without blemish or mistake. He's simply saying that in maturity of time it will happen. ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! The first thing you need to do is understand that you are reading a translation. That translation is using words from 1611 that have changed meaning over the centuries. I didn't say "mature" is a perfect translation into english, but it's much closer to the concept being conveyed than "without a mistake" as the word "perfect" has come to mean in modern english. Using a phrase like "completely ready" or "full & complete" might better explain the intent in some places.. Secondly, words have more than one meaning and the way they are used is more important than a static definition. Whether you like it or not, the word "perfect" is better translated as "mature" in most places where it is used. so define this one to your specs matt. 5:48 , Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. be ye mature as your Father is mature again. Please!!!! I guess next we will have to change the meaning of Holy so that it will fit your teachings be ye Holy for I am Holy hi his disciple 3, perhaps strong's def. will help. 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. robertson's word pictures, Perfect (τελειοι). The word comes from τελος, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. J f b Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore — rather, “Ye shall therefore be,” or “Ye are therefore to be,” as My disciples and in My kingdom. perfect — or complete. Manifestly, our Lord here speaks, not of degrees of excellence, but of the kind of excellence which was to distinguish His disciples and characterize His kingdom. When therefore He adds, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect — He refers to that full-orbed glorious completeness which is in the great Divine Model, “their Father which is in heaven.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His_disciple3 Posted July 8, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 358 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Especially in KJV the word "perfect" means "mature" in old english used at the time of the translation, not "perfection" as we think of today meaning without blemish or mistake. He's simply saying that in maturity of time it will happen. ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! The first thing you need to do is understand that you are reading a translation. That translation is using words from 1611 that have changed meaning over the centuries. I didn't say "mature" is a perfect translation into english, but it's much closer to the concept being conveyed than "without a mistake" as the word "perfect" has come to mean in modern english. Using a phrase like "completely ready" or "full & complete" might better explain the intent in some places.. Secondly, words have more than one meaning and the way they are used is more important than a static definition. Whether you like it or not, the word "perfect" is better translated as "mature" in most places where it is used. so define this one to your specs matt. 5:48 , Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. be ye mature as your Father is mature again. Please!!!! I guess next we will have to change the meaning of Holy so that it will fit your teachings be ye Holy for I am Holy hi his disciple 3, perhaps strong's def. will help. 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. robertson's word pictures, Perfect (τελειοι). The word comes from τελος, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. J f b Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore — rather, “Ye shall therefore be,” or “Ye are therefore to be,” as My disciples and in My kingdom. perfect — or complete. Manifestly, our Lord here speaks, not of degrees of excellence, but of the kind of excellence which was to distinguish His disciples and characterize His kingdom. When therefore He adds, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect — He refers to that full-orbed glorious completeness which is in the great Divine Model, “their Father which is in heaven.” you just proved that the word used in greek can mean perfect, thanks !!!! 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; perfect. Edited July 8, 2012 by His_disciple3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted July 8, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 (edited) Especially in KJV the word "perfect" means "mature" in old english used at the time of the translation, not "perfection" as we think of today meaning without blemish or mistake. He's simply saying that in maturity of time it will happen. ok so let's change all doctrine for the perfect Lamb of God didn't Come, the mature Lamb of God came! please! The first thing you need to do is understand that you are reading a translation. That translation is using words from 1611 that have changed meaning over the centuries. I didn't say "mature" is a perfect translation into english, but it's much closer to the concept being conveyed than "without a mistake" as the word "perfect" has come to mean in modern english. Using a phrase like "completely ready" or "full & complete" might better explain the intent in some places.. Secondly, words have more than one meaning and the way they are used is more important than a static definition. Whether you like it or not, the word "perfect" is better translated as "mature" in most places where it is used. so define this one to your specs matt. 5:48 , Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. be ye mature as your Father is mature again. Please!!!! I guess next we will have to change the meaning of Holy so that it will fit your teachings be ye Holy for I am Holy hi his disciple 3, perhaps strong's def. will help. 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect. Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. robertson's word pictures, Perfect (τελειοι). The word comes from τελος, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. J f b Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore — rather, “Ye shall therefore be,” or “Ye are therefore to be,” as My disciples and in My kingdom. perfect — or complete. Manifestly, our Lord here speaks, not of degrees of excellence, but of the kind of excellence which was to distinguish His disciples and characterize His kingdom. When therefore He adds, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect — He refers to that full-orbed glorious completeness which is in the great Divine Model, “their Father which is in heaven.” you just proved that the word used in greek can mean perfect, thanks !!!! 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; perfect. Hi his disciple 3, Complete would be the closest definition as far as I can see. So then it comes to looking at the context to see what is complete is speaking of. Again, (bolded this time) 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect. robertson's word pictures, Perfect (τελειοι). The word comes from τελος, end, goal, limit. Here it is the goal set before us, the absolute standard of our Heavenly Father. The word is used also for relative perfection as of adults compared with children. I could say someone is a mature Christian, I could say that someone is a complete Christian, or I could say that someone is a perfect Christian. Which do you suppose would be better used to give the proper understanding of today’s English? I would say that God is perfect. And I would be right because the completeness spoken of is perfect, although I believe it encompasses much more then that because using the word perfect does not give thoughts to anybody about being complete. So even the word perfect would fall short of what is being said. So the word does mean complete. The word has many applications. note to the last point i assume was added when you edited it. the words after the — (of full age, man, perfect) is how the kjv translated it in various places Edited July 8, 2012 by asper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted July 8, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Telios (rendered 'perfect' in this verse) actually means mature or complete. There is also something 'in part' which must eventually become mature, per the context of the verse. Now, what do we absolutely know that is not yet complete, but will be one day? THE BODY OF CHRIST. Especially in KJV the word "perfect" means "mature" in old english used at the time of the translation, not "perfection" as we think of today meaning without blemish or mistake. He's simply saying that in maturity of time it will happen. This is how I have come to understand this verse also. teleios can mean perfection but can also mean complete, lacking nothing. If it referring to the Church as I believe that would make sense in either case also. I have a friend who grew up in Greece and has bore this out in bible study. Contrary to popular understanding ALL Greek students learn classical Greek in High School when he was growing up. He has always mentioned that the Strong's definitions are among the best and most accurate. 5046 ~teleiov~ teleios \@tel'-i-os\@ from 5056; TDNT-8:67,1161; adj AV-perfect 17, man 1, of full age 1; 19 1) brought to its end, finished 2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness 3) perfect 4) that which is perfect 4a) consummate human integrity and virtue 4b) of men 4b1) full grown, adult, of full age, mature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted July 8, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Author Share Posted July 8, 2012 hi larryt, that is not strongs but that is the same as my online Bible greek english. this is strong's 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryt Posted July 8, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 52 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,230 Content Per Day: 0.31 Reputation: 124 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/22/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/03/1952 Share Posted July 8, 2012 hi larryt, that is not strongs but that is the same as my online Bible greek english. this is strong's 5046. τελειος teleios tel’-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness: — of full age, man, perfect. I use the OLB also. My Greek friend made the statement regarding Strong's though. He is close to 70 now and I have not seen him in several yrs. LT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 so define this one to your specs matt. 5:48 , Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. be ye mature as your Father is mature again. Please!!!! I guess next we will have to change the meaning of Holy so that it will fit your teachings be ye Holy for I am Holy Let's reverse your disagreement for just a second. telios is also used in Romans 10 "For Christ is the telios (goal) of the law" If we use the current english definition of the word "Perfect" in place of "telios" it says "For Christ is the perfection of the law". That might seem like a possibility but in context Paul is only saying that the goal of the Law is to bring us to an understanding of why we need a sacrifice for sin. Because we are not capable of "perfection" of our own merit. Do you really and seriously believe that God requires absolute perfection (no mistakes) of us? Who could live under that burden of legal requirement? Are you perfect yet? Do you know anyone who is? In the entirety of world history and time there has been only one who was, and they crucified Him for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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