Is It Okay for Christians To Sin?

[TrackerJack]

In fact... If G-d tells you to pull over during rush hour and sit on the side of the road balancing your shoe on top of you head, Would you do it?

If not, you're sinning.

And no. It's not acceptable.

[gdemoss]

What shall I say? Where will your sin lead you too? Is God the same yesterday, today and forever? Will he reward sin in another manner than he has in the past when his patience has expired? Remember Israel, the northern 10 tribes? Were not all these things written for our admonition?

Sin is transgressing the law. The law is the law of Christ. The grace of God is to be in us and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, yet many hold grudges and are unforgiving, many are defiled in sexual sin that destroys the very fabric of society, many are unequally yoked together with unbelievers striving for world peace in a way contrary to the scriptures, many partake of the sins of others who are filled with envy, jealousy and emulation for the pursuit of being Godlike and worshiped here upon the earth through politics, sports, business, etc whose sin has reached up to the heavens into the ears of the Lord of Sabbaoth. They shall not protect their institutions like playboy and penthouse. Their topless bars and swingers clubs dotting the land will be thrown down in the midst. Ephraim has turned back in the day of battle and will not go unpunished. Despise not the chastening of the Lord but repent and be spared the coming judgment.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Remember Israel. God cannot lie, nor can he change.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jhn 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

1Cr 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak [this] to your shame.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Please Don't Be Fooled About 1 John 1:9 but Keep It In Context....It Is Conditional.

It begins as part of a complete message which is the message of salvation.

1Jo 1:5 ¶ This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Is there darkness in you? Are you walking in it or the light God has given?

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

But if....conditional. Do you really have fellowship one with another and therefore the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin or are you walking in darkness and deceived like the Laodiceans into thinking you are clothed with the righteousness of Christ thou you be naked?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Do you deny that sin is in your mortal body?

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Have you confessed the sin that you have committed? Recall the baptism of John. Those who partook of it confessed their sin, crying out upon the name of the Lord to be saved by it. The Pharisees could not participate because they refused to do so as they thought they were righteous through following their interpretation of the law. They did not bring forth fruit meet for repentance. Peter spoke of the way baptism saves us through a clean conscience toward God by confession and repentance, turning from known sin unto serving the living God.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Do you say that you have never sinned? For all have fallen short the glory of God. If we walk without sin in our lives today is only by the power of submission to the Holy Spirit of the Living God, walking as Jesus walked in grace and truth having taken his yoke upon us and being obedient unto the word of God. Jesus gives eternal life to all who obey him (Heb 5).

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I said all that to say this: If you have known sin in your life, confess it...rid yourself of it....call upon the name of the Lord to strengthen you in the inner man that you might walk worthy of the Lord and the calling in which you were called. If you find yourself bound to sin and unable to escape, cry out with strong crying and tears from him who is able to save you from death. Remember children, John wrote these things unto us that we would not sin. If any does sin, we have and advocate with the father in heaven but let the man who leans upon the advocate fear lest he be found to be one who is just being lascivious in nature and not of God. Those who work iniquity will be turned away.

We are without excuse:

1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

We can bear every temptation as God has said. Therefore we ought to fear if sin takes us down and fall upon our knees immediately. We need take sin seriously.

Our Christian brothers will fall into temptation and sin...we ought to support the weak.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

When I post like this the first thing those who are in sin usually respond with is "Gary do you sin?", so in light of my experience I would like to share my last known sin. It was just this past week when a man at work came to me and we were discussing something about the job I was doing. I had previously discussed the problem with another man and was overcome by the desire not to go through the discussion again. Pride took over and I became outwardly contentious and dismissed the man. The spirit in me was grieved and I was without excuse. I reasoned within myself about my sin for about 10 minutes and then concluded that I must repent, humble myself before the man I offended and ask for forgiveness but not before confessing my sin unto the Lord. I met him as he was on the way to confess his own wrong unto me. We accepted one another and were fully restored with nothing between us. I did not have to commit this sin as the door to escape came early and I just needed to hold my tongue, but I refused and fell. This happens much fewer and farther in between because I took Peter seriously when he wrote the following:

2Pe 1:5 ¶ And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Notice he states that it is possible for us to 'never fall'. That seems crazy when first heard but anyone who has come from the depths of bondage to sin and has experienced a serious relief from that sin should understand that if it is possible to have victory at all then absolute victory should not be denied possible because the bible does not declare such to be true.

1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

We can walk like Jesus walked. This does not say that we cannot stumble though. It merely suggests that we can do it without stumbling through him. We can do all things through Christ...not ourselves but submission unto God.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Having taken Jesus yoke upon us (putting ourselves under his teaching/training) we become slaves to righteousness and the end of our faith in him is boldness in the day of judgment because we are walking in love in this life, not imputing the sin of others unto them but forgiving them and pleading with them to be reconciled unto God through Christ.

My brethren, if any of you are in sin. I beg you by the mercies of God, repent. If you don't understand what it truly means to be in sin, I ask that you consider a simple test. Raise your eyes and hands up to heaven and try to confess to God that you have no unconfessed sin in your life and that your hands are clean of the blood of Christ today. Ask yourself if there is anyone on this earth that you cannot look in the eye and say honestly to them that you have no unrepentant sin toward them but are reconciled completely to them. Do you have a clean conscience toward both God and man? Have you cleansed your hands and purified your hearts before God?

Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners; and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

Act 24:14-16 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and [toward] men.

Paul is clear that his desire is to be resurrected along with the just who live by faith and it is because of this hope that he works diligently to always have a conscience void of offense. He tied it together and that cannot be denied except through heresy. Though our works cannot save us, they can condemn us as unbelievers. Remember Israel in the wilderness. They had an evil heart of unbelief and did not receive the promise. We are warned likewise.

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Do you have a conscience void of offense? Have you departed from Gods ways and are not walking in the faith?

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Is Christ in you?

In Jesus Name and for the Love of the Truth,

Gary

[Guest Norrin Radd]

In fact... If G-d tells you to pull over during rush hour and sit on the side of the road balancing your shoe on top of you head, Would you do it?

If not, you're sinning.

And no. It's not acceptable.

This is a straw man argument, because there is no reason to believe God would tell anyone to do that. The person could rightly conclude it was only in their head. It is like the people who claim God tells them to harm someone. God wouldn't do that, so they wouldn't be disobeying to fail to follow the voice in their head. On the other hand, we have God's Word, and we know what it tells us. The Bible tells us plainly what sin is in 1 John 2:4.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

As for our being able to sin, and everything being ok between us and God, 1 John 2:5-6 continues...

And ye know that he was manisfested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

The anti-legalism crowd is promoting a false doctrine. When Paul spoke of not being under the law, he was speaking of the ceremonial laws and those laws dealing with the Levitical Priesthood, not the moral laws.

Manure. If that's what he meant, he was an utterly incompetent communicator. He *never* said we are freed only from the ceremonial Law, and he *explicitly* said that the Law of "commandments and ordinances" is "abolished."

If he was saying we could ignore the moral laws, then how does anyone explain this passage in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor efferminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I'm well aware of that and other "vice lists." I acknowledge that they exist and that they mean SOMETHING. But since "love of the brethren" is presented much more frequently, consistently, and expansively, and is presented as THE fulfillment of the Law, I'll concentrate on that and not worry about the other.

If we were to have no regard for God's moral laws, how could he keep people out of his Kingdom for committing sins? Look at what Jesus said about the law, in Matthew 5:17-19

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoseover shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.

Heaven and earth hasn't passed away, so the law remains. None of the law was destroyed. Some laws were never intended to continue forever. There was a temporary system of animal sacrifice that was only to continue till the cross. There was a temporary group of laws to show that Israel was a separate people from the idol worshipping gentile nations. Those laws no longer apply because Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse of all sins, and because the gentiles are now included in God's salvation plan. All believers are one, whether Jew or Greek. It would be like if I created a law, and in the law, it had temporary provisions that would continue as a bridge till everything was implemented. The law remains, but part of it doesn't continue.

That last sentence summed up your argument nicely, since it was nothing but inane gobbledygook.

The Law of the Obsolete Covenant is gone. All of it. Finis. Hasta la vista. "Harry Vederci." (A bit of Ralph Cramden lingo there.) The one and only thing that remains is the one Commandment explicitly reinstated -- "Love your neighbor as yourself" in the Synoptics, Paul, and James, and "Love one another" in John's works.

Paul said the Law was abolished. Paul said that love fulfills the Law. James said that love is "doing well." Love is enough. Deal with it. Don't try to reimpose the slavery from which Christ freed us.

[TrackerJack]

In fact... If G-d tells you to pull over during rush hour and sit on the side of the road balancing your shoe on top of you head, Would you do it?

If not, you're sinning.

And no. It's not acceptable.

This is a straw man argument, because there is no reason to believe God would tell anyone to do that. The person could rightly conclude it was only in their head.

Congratulations!

I was hoping someone would say something like this.

Our pastor was given this very commandment. He thought it was insane, but obediently followed the instruction.

IMMEDIATELY someone pulled over and demanded he tell them about Jesus. Apparently an atheist actually prayed to G-d and tested Him by asking to see someone on the side of the road with a shoe on their head.

Our pastor lead that person to Christ.

Of course delayed obedience would have meant a lost soul.

[JTC]

Interesting reading. One of you said what I'm thinking. Namely that a lot of people who call themselves Christians, and think they are Christians, really aren't because they still love to sin and to be of this world. The problem is this seems to be everyone around here. And yet common sense tells me that I can't be the only one who doesn't want to sin. Which leads me to the conclusion, that the people who really don't want to sin are keeping it a secret. I often see non Christians showing much greater love for their fellow man than the church Christians. This saddens me in my very soul. It seems like around here, to take a stand in favor of not sinning will make you so unpopular, that no one wants you around. I think this started some 30 years ago, and has now become the norm. Just don't talk about sin. It's a dirty word. But I did. We all should. We need to, if we want to get to heaven.

[Guest]

I believe that how we behave is more important than what we believe. I use James 2:14-26 as proof of this. There is also ample proof in the words of Jesus in the gospels, as well as what Jesus told the 7 churches in Revelation.

I believe God wanted me to tell this.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10 (NKJV)

Now that does not give one license to sin; in fact if one who believes they are "saved" but their behavior does not change, their being born again is brought into question. Those who know Christ obey Him, not because they have to, but out of gratitude for what He has done for them. But when all is said and done, one is still saved through faith, not works. There will be a lot of astonished "Christians" come judgment time though.

[JTC]

Hey Parker,

I didn't mean that we're saved through good deeds. Sorry you misunderstood me. I'm finding as I get older I am not so elegant with words as I once was. It's like in my mind I want to say a whole lot more than I actually type.

So once again, leaning heavily on what James said, if one man says he's saved because of what he believes, and what he said, meaning the sinners prayer, and yet he has no good and admirable deeds to show for himself, his faith is dead, and his salvation is in question.

But now suppose another man comes along, and whom God has been working on his heart and soul so that he has many good deeds, but he never really heard of Jesus and the salvation He brings. If that man should die without hearing of Jesus I believe he will fare better than the man who heard of Jesus, said the sinners prayer, and did not change.

In my example it also would follow that if the man who has been unwittingly obeying God hears the good news of the gospel, he will then readily accept Jesus, because he already had the Holy Spirit in him but did not know it.

Salvation is both a gift from God, and something of a mystery as to why God even wants to save us. But Glory be to God because He does.

I think you should also look at my statement in view of what this question was about, which is people who claim to be Christians but have virtually nothing to show for it. I consider this an extremely important issue because the lack of good works in Christians around here has resulted in me having to walk away from every church I have tried to join in the last 10 years. Not that I'm so perfect, I surely am not. But I keep seeing things in the churches I try to join that I simply cannot partake of. Amen

[Guest Norrin Radd]

...

Why would the commandment to love still be in tact?

If you are asking why I believe that, I don't think I can explain much better than the Scriptures I already cited.

If you are asking why God chose that one Commandment and no others, I don't know. But I think it was a good choice.

If you are right about the rest of the law, and you feel free to ignore a passage that states that if you break certain laws, you won't inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, why not be free to hate people? I would dispute what you said line by line, but I know it would be a waste of time. It is obvious we are coming from polar opposite sides of the spectrum, and will never agree.

That's probably true. With fundamentally different hermeneutics, consensus is almost impossible.

Keep on ignoring sins that will keep you out of heaven and see where that gets you at the judgment.

I would point out that if *I* am correct, *you* are in jeopardy. According to Gal. 5, those who impose laws as a condition of maintaining salvation are fallen from grace, severed from Christ -- i.e. lost. Paul prayed that such ones be cursed (Gal. 1).

[Matthitjah]

Falling short of perfection, missing the mark. Anytime we knowingly and intentionally disobey God or fail to live in perfect accordance with His will, we are sinning. That encompasses much.

Is there a difference between "sinning" and "breaking God's Law"?

No Norrin, there is no difference between breaking God's laws and sinning.

When you asked "what is sin?", I thought you were kidding. But maybe you weren't. If you really don't know what sin is you need to do some reading in the Bible. Start with Proverbs. Those 2 books are full of what God likes and what God hates. Then try Matthew. After that Corinthians 1 and 2. Since Paul was the apostle to gentiles, he had to explain sin more than the other apostles did.

God is very concerned with how we treat each other, as well as Him. So remember these words from Jesus: Treat everyone as you would like them to treat you. If you do that you will avoid many sins.

I have my own idea of what sin is, but I asked in order to find out what others believe and so advance the discussion.

I tend to agree with you that "sinning" and "breaking God's law" are identical, but that leads me to a conclusion rather different from yours. I have pretty well settled on the conclusion that in the New Covenant, there is only one law that comes close to being absolute and universal, and that is the law to "love one another" or "love your neighbor as yourself."

Gods Law was given so that we might recognize that we are sinners. There's only One human being who ever measured up to Gods Law. His name is Jesus Christ. Adam and Eve were innocent prior to the fall because they had no such knowledge or nature. We do not have that luxury.

Sin is anything that separates you from God. It can be willful disobedience or even ignorance in thought or deed.

So sin is any breaking of God's revealed law -- whether willfully or in ignorance -- AND sin can be any of millions of other things. Interesting. So all that stuff about "My yoke is easy and My burden is light" and "we are redeemed from the curse that is the Law" and the list of rules that we've broken and the Law of commandments and ordinances being crucified and abolished -- all that is basically flatulence, because in reality, God is still standing there scowling down on us, a list of rules and standards ten times as big as Obamacare in one hand, and a "smite-ning bolt" in the other, just waiting for us to accidentally slip out of line so He can drop the hammer.

That's running away with the ball a might bit, don't ya think?

God liberated you from the law of sin and death. However, this does not negate the Law

So Paul was wrong about us no longer being under the Law, being free from the curse that is the Law because it was hanged on the "tree" with Christ (Gal. 3), the list of all the decrees we've broken was crucified (Col. 2), the entire Law of commandments and ordinances was abolished in Christ's death? Those make it sound pretty much "negated" to me.

and you do no have absolute Liberty to just go on sinning. You are in fact Free and Liberated to Love God and others by not sinning. That is not to say that you won't but it should not constitute the sum of your life.

I didn't say anyone has liberty to sin at will. I am saying the list of what constitutes "sin" is much smaller and less complicated than what legalists would have us believe.

Also, when you say, "love God and others by not sinning," I believe you may have some things out of order. First of all, Matthew twice quotes Jesus as saying God "desire(s) mercy, not sacrifice." We love God BY loving others. Secondly, we don't "love others" by not sinning; we show love to others, and that IN AND OF ITSELF is "not sinning."

Norrin,

Settle down a little bit and get hold of yourself. You appear a little agitated.

Meanwhile, let's be mindful of this. God's throne is a throne of Mercy. He sit's on the Mercy seat.

We Love others because we Love God. We follow God's Law because we Love God. What flows from that naturally is Love for others.

You err in that you do not fully grasp the Royal Law.

You also misunderstand the nature of sin. It is total and complete. It has not only cut you off from God relationally, it has cut you off from mankind relationally, and the Creation. You cannot Love others if you do not Love God and you do not Love God if you do not keep His commands.

Joh 14:21

He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

It all starts wiuth God, not you.

As I have already said, "You have been Liberated to Live by God's command. Not to deny it." The sum total of your new life in Christ should be emancipation from sin and to live this finite human existence as God so ordered it.

Peace,

Dave

[Guest]

Hey Parker,

I didn't mean that we're saved through good deeds. Sorry you misunderstood me. I'm finding as I get older I am not so elegant with words as I once was. It's like in my mind I want to say a whole lot more than I actually type.

So once again, leaning heavily on what James said, if one man says he's saved because of what he believes, and what he said, meaning the sinners prayer, and yet he has no good and admirable deeds to show for himself, his faith is dead, and his salvation is in question.

But now suppose another man comes along, and whom God has been working on his heart and soul so that he has many good deeds, but he never really heard of Jesus and the salvation He brings. If that man should die without hearing of Jesus I believe he will fare better than the man who heard of Jesus, said the sinners prayer, and did not change.

In my example it also would follow that if the man who has been unwittingly obeying God hears the good news of the gospel, he will then readily accept Jesus, because he already had the Holy Spirit in him but did not know it.

Salvation is both a gift from God, and something of a mystery as to why God even wants to save us. But Glory be to God because He does.

I think you should also look at my statement in view of what this question was about, which is people who claim to be Christians but have virtually nothing to show for it. I consider this an extremely important issue because the lack of good works in Christians around here has resulted in me having to walk away from every church I have tried to join in the last 10 years. Not that I'm so perfect, I surely am not. But I keep seeing things in the churches I try to join that I simply cannot partake of. Amen

I wasn't trying to insult you. Sorry if I made you think it. I agree that faith without works is dead, but the only requirement for salvation is accepting Christ as your Savior, that His death on the Cross was complete payment for your sins - past, present, and future. And repentance, which brought you to Christ in the first place. We can't assume to know what is in a person's heart by their actions. We are required, as brothers and sisters in the faith, to point out to such a person as you are referring to that their behavior doesn't reflect Christ and perhaps they need to re-evaluate their salvation. Of course they will reply that we are not to judge, which is only partially true. We are told to judge the motives of those in the Church. Paul actually rebukes the Corinthians for not judging: "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" (I Cor. 6:1-5)