A History Question About Israel?

[JohnD]

THE QUR'AN SAYS:

"To Moses We [Allah] gave nine clear signs. Ask the Israelites how he [Moses] first appeared amongst them. Pharoah said to him: 'Moses, I can see that you are bewitched.' 'You know full well,' he [Moses] replied, 'that none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth has revealed these visible signs. Pharoah, you are doomed.'"

"Pharoah sought to scare them [the Israelites] out of the land [of Israel]: but We [Allah] drowned him [Pharoah] together with all who were with him. Then We [Allah] said to the Israelites: 'Dwell in this land [the Land of Israel]. When the promise of the hereafter [End of Days] comes to be fulfilled, We [Allah] shall assemble you [the Israelites] all together [in the Land of Israel]."

"We [Allah] have revealed the Qur'an with the truth, and with the truth it has come down. We have sent you [Muhammed] forth only to proclaim good news and to give warning."

[Qur'an, "Night Journey," chapter 17:100-104]

SHAYKH PROF. PALAZZI COMMENTS:

God wanted to give Avraham a double blessing, through Ishmael and through Isaac, and ordered that Ishmael's descendents should live in the desert of Arabia and Isaac's in Canaan.

The Qur'an recognizes the Land of Israel as the heritage of the Jews and it explains that, before the Last Judgment, Jews will return to dwell there. This prophecy has already been fulfilled.

Not to give credit to the Qur'an as prophetic, but it does say that the holy land belongs to the Jews and though some interpret the Qur'an to say Israel will never rise again (and I have yet to find this quote... people only parrot others who said the Qur'an said it), quite the opposite is true.

[JohnD]

On such biblical information, modern Christianity is like a:

Through the ages of the great hostile take over under Emperor Constantine (which appeared to be just the opposite... there is a way that seems right to man but the ends thereof are the ways of death) and the half-vast attempts to reform since then... the Church has managed to divorce itself from Israel and Jewry... when Spiritual Israel and Spiritual Jews were the goal of God all along and unto future eternity.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NASB95)

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord.

33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 “They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Romans 2:28-29 (NASB95)

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

John 4:24 (NASB95)

24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Philippians 3:3 (NASB95)

3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

John 4:20-24 (NASB95)

20 “Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

22 “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.

23 “But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

From the Jews? From Christ... from God... the KJV (IMHO) translates this best as "salvation is OF the Jews."

Meaning faith in the Jewish Messiah makes one a Spirit Jew. It does not make one a physical Jew. Only God and (physical) Jewish parents can do that.

Note the distinction here...

Romans 9:1-8 (NASB95)

1 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.

3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,

5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.”

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

We unwittingly and in some cases unwillingly are part of a JEWISH faith a JEWISH plan for the salvation of mankind. Revelation 13:8 assures us this was the plan since before the world began. The lamb slain from the foundations of the world. And God is not finished with the Jewish children of the flesh as is evident in the regathering of Israel and the outcome of the wars since and the fact that there will be a Great Tribulation.

What?

Yes!

A Great Tribulation serves no purpose for a non-maniacal God except to coax the surviving Jews at that point in history to cry out to Jesus of Nazareth as a last resort. And the look on their faces when he comes to personally save them will be P R I C E L E S S ! ! !

[JTC]

Thank you folks. This has become a very informative thread.

I was really hoping that a peace could be found between us and Islam. I don't really think it will possible.

Thanks again for the info.

[nebula]

That's what I'm trying to do. I would like to see peace in ME and from the little I know, the peace will never be had because the Arabs feel that land belongs to them, and the Jews feel like it's theirs.

Peace in the ME is illusive as peace in the Congo and many other areas of Africa. Funny how the ME gets so much attention.

From what you said Neb the Jews paid the Arabs for the land in 1948. But it was probably a thing like the UN gave the land back to the Jews so the Arabs had to get out, and oh, here's a few trinkets for your trouble.

I wish Shiloh were here to explain things, as he is the one who has done the research. He's the one who presented the info I presented about the Jews buying the land.

But the UN didn't send anyone there to clear out anyone.

When a people are forced out of a land they've been in maybe up to 2000 years, it's not hard to see why there's no peace.

Where did you get the concept that the people living there in 1948 were living there for up to 2000 years? The land has gone through so many turn-overs of power, I fail to see how anyone could claim centuries or more of "squatter rights" so to speak.

Another question I have is if the ME lands weren't rich in oil, would we be concerned with what goes on over there?

That is a good question - except that no one has ever fought for the land of Israel over oil.

Maybe not. If we leave that area alone it shouldn't take too long for the Arabs to defeat Israel.

Why do you believe this? Israel should have been defeated in the 7 Day war and the Yom Kippur War, but weren't.

So maybe there are people in our country who want us to stay in the ME with our military, and it's the same people who oppose the electric car, and oppose finding oil closer to home. It's like only by keeping America dependent on ME oil, can we guarantee that the American people will allow the government to keep our military there.

And I've been trying to understand this without bringing religion into it. But since all the end time prophesies in the Bible talk about Israel, that may be another reason some Americans want us there with our military, and thusly why we don't change our country to one that isn't so oil dependent. It must be at least 10 years now that we know how to make America not so oil dependent. But there is someone blocking it. And I mean people and groups of people. Not God.

Well, if we would pump out the oil in our own land and the portion of the Gulf that belongs to us, and built more refineries, we would be oil independent (in terms of needing oil from other lands).

[GoldenEagle]

JTC, you might like to see the following paper for some insight on Israel.

A COMMENTARY ON ISRAEL’S FUTURE

By R. L. DeWitt, 08/11

[Many religious people speculate about God’s mind concerning Israel ---the people in the Bible whom God called by covenant for special care (see promises to Abraham in (Genesis 12 & 17& 22 ). Popular thoughts are often guesswork and misapplying Scripture to suppose things not true to the Word of God.]

Let us seek to appreciate God’s purposes and determine what is the course for Israel ---God’s chosen earthly people. Will they diminish and be destroyed, or continue and eventually prosper and be at peace?

Any careful student of the Bible will see that there are three kinds of people in the world: Israelites, Gentiles, and the Church of God. Israel is a chosen earthly people, presently under discipline, but always in the mind of God for good. They are presently set aside, but will be preserved and restored in a day to come with blessings on the earth forever. The Church is a called out and redeemed people as a heavenly bride today, who will go to be with Christ forever. All other souls are Gentiles ---the gender of mankind.

The nation called Israel today was formed in 1948 as a sovereign state, and the people that returned and settled in that land reclaimed what God gave them a very long time ago, as the Bible shows. Their return was allowed by God, but not directed by Him, for He will personally re-gather them in the “promised land” one day in the future, in triumph over all their enemies as prophecy shows.

The so-called Israelis today are called that as nationals, but God’s people of the O.T. are by promise still Israelites. The reference to "Jews" today is a religious name and are called that because it was mostly the tribe of Judah that returned to recover the land after exile, but actually most Israelites do not know which tribe they are from. They are a scattered people in the world, and will not be gathered again as a nation by God until the Lord comes to reign after the Tribulation Period, as shown in Bible prophecy.

Israelites were overthrown and taken captive by the judgment of God in about 588 BC for their rebellion over many years. Some were allowed to return under the provision of Cyrus, King of Persia – circa 520 BC, and later the King Artaxeres in 446 BC. This people were later conquered by Rome about 63 BC just prior to the time of Jesus Christ, and later driven out by the Romans in about 137 AD after being occupied by them for about 75 years, though some poor Israelites remained along with various Arab tribes wandering through the land, but never settling and forming a State.

The history thereafter in brief shows Great Britain governing the land under the control of the League of Nations following World War I, then dividing the land to accommodate various religious groups coming in 1922. After Israel began returning to their homeland in great numbers in the 1930’s they eventually formed a nation in 1948. One can study the historical account further from the official records.

The world in general today is divided, with most people outside of real Christianity opposing Israel and calling for them to give in to Moslem demands for ownership of part of Israel’s land. That is unique in the world, for it does not happen in any other country. Israel established a nation and developed the land, and now the various Arab groups that continue coming into the land today want to own it.

Israel is still God's earthly people by covenant, and that is why we as Christians must honor that and aid Israel as much as we can. Israel and the Church are both people of God. We may not approve of their governmental ways, and we are sad that they reject their Messiah --the Lord Jesus Christ, but that is between them and God (and they have and will suffer much for it). Today they must come to God the same as Gentiles through Jesus Christ --God's beloved Son and their only blood sacrifice. Only then will the current generation find blessing and hope, and that for eternity.

It is important to see in the Bible that Israel as a people will rule over the earth by God's leading when the new earth is established and they repent (note Zech. 13:6); and today their religion has been done away at the cross. The church --the bride of Christ, is a heavenly people, and they are not destined to live on the earth, but in Heaven. One needs to understand this difference between the Church and Israel. -RLD

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Very informative.

[Guest]

Hallelujah~!

The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. Joel 3:16

PS: Israel Does Not Now Need Nor Will She Ever (IMO) Get Our Help In Her Time Of Trouble

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. Jeremiah 30:6-11

[Guest shiloh357]

The nation called Israel today was formed in 1948 as a sovereign state, and the people that returned and settled in that land reclaimed what God gave them a very long time ago, as the Bible shows. Their return was allowed by God, but not directed by Him, for He will personally re-gather them in the “promised land” one day in the future, in triumph over all their enemies as prophecy shows.

Actually the return was directed by God and is a direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy. The regathering we are seeing today is the fulfillment of God's promise to regather them from the land. And they are triumphing over ther enemies. Israel has had to fight 6 defensive wars and they have won all of them.

[Guest]

I have a question in regards to Israeli history. When I was a young man I just didn't find history to be of much interest, and that was a big mistake. So I hope we have some history buffs here.

I know that in 1948, after WW2 had ended, the Jewish people were given back the land we now know as Israel. I also know that in ancient times God gave this land to the Jewish people. But then they lost it, and I think God took it away from them because they continually failed to obey Him. So prior to WW2, and maybe even WW1, where were the Jewish people living? What I mean is prior to 1948, when was the last time the Jews lived as a nation in the land known as Israel?

And does anyone know why this land was given back to them in 1948? I mean how was that decision made? Obviously the people who lived there prior to 1948 had to be relocated. They didn't take that well, and there has been war and growing hatred there ever since.

Does anyone know anything about all this?

You have to go back further than 1948. A League of Nations resolution set aside reserved land for Jews to migrate to in 1922 before then Jews were scattered among several nations, mostly in Russia and Eastern Europe. God's judgement on the Jews in 70 A.D. for rejecting their long awaited Messiah cannot be overstated. Much of the gospels that are popularly attributed to end times are actually dire prophesies and warnings that Jesus gave that he would be killed by his own people and that unprecidented calamity would befall them. In Matthew 24, Jesus uses apocolyptic language to describe, not the end of the world, but the soon coming destruction of the temple, the sacking of Jerusalem, and the scattering of Jews. "This generation shall not pass" sets the correct time frame for the fulfillment of prophesy; for indeed, the prophesied measure of wrath befell the Jews within a single generation of Christ's life on earth.

The repatriation of Jews in their historic land is a testimony to God's mercy, that God does not forever forget his people and even in his wrath, mercy will have the final word. Many dispute that these Jews are God's people or that they are in any way connected to Biblical Jews. But I'm confident that indeed we're talking about the same Jews based solely on Satan's opposition to these people. I find it's no coincidence that they were targed for extinction by Adolf Hitler and the German National Socialists and I similarly find that the steeped hatred Israel is subjected to in the United Nations and by all its neighbors results from a concert of demonic opposition. I also find that opposition from Israel here in the United States doesn't come from Christians and Jews so much as it comes from the godless Left. None of this can be dismissed as mere coincidence.

[Guest]

Thank you folks. This has become a very informative thread.

I was really hoping that a peace could be found between us and Islam. I don't really think it will possible.

Thanks again for the info.

In my opinion, the god of Islam and the God of the Jews and Christians are at emnity with one another. It's popular to posit that "allah" is the same as God, but there are some very fundamental problems with that, theologically and historically. I could write a whole essay, but in the sake of brevity, if allah is God, that means that after God ushered in the New Covenant of Grace, he took a giant leap backward to return people to trying to achieve salvation through obedience of religious law. It would be the repealing of the New Covenant and the work of Christ to reconcile man to God through his own blood.