New ager's take on Rapture, very interesting!

[Matthitjah]

The common Rapture theory in the Western Church is a hoax and has no bearing on actual Biblical facts.

It also removes the Church from her Missional position. Which is why the Western Church is so weak right now and dropping numbers fast, especially here in the States. People feel that the Church is hardly relevant anymore and the number one reason is she is off Mission. Partly because of fantasies like the current popular Rapture theory.

I would put pride first but psychology, money preachers, false prophets, the christian book industry, the christian music industry instead of ministry, the mega programed church that tells people to not pay attention to biblical prophecy and basically a lack of bible exposition and personal bible reading in our churches all next before blaming the rapture being taught wrongly. To blame a rapture teaching for the fall of the western church is a cop out.

The last single church to disciple believers and spread the gospel to every continent without a set plan or program but teaching the word and moving in the love of God was a despensational pre-trib church from the sixties called Calvary Chapel. They are now failing in a sense to take biblical understanding farther and many of the churches have sealed themselves as though their doctrine is the magic from which the revival came but it isn't so. Many of them now will go bad but many of them are still very strong and biblical because they have stuck with strong biblical exposition and are solid on mission.

I am not a pretribulational rapture believer and I also see the other side of the coin so to speak in that it will or could make a people lazy after a few generations. The bible becoming to them more and more for those left behind then for us now as though nothing else needs to be fulfilled because it is for others in the future. But the language you have used is divisive for the one point that saying there is no rapture and is a fantasy. Granted the event is the resurrection and the church has over emphasized the rapture, especially pre-trib but a fantasy. That's just to far.

I didn't blame a popular Rapture teaching. I stated that "this is a part of the problem which has left the Church off Mission."

What was the Mission of the Church? What did Christ set her up to do? Was it to be a Hospital Ship or an Attack Carrier?

[Matthitjah]

My point is this.

The Popular Western Churches theology where it concerns the Rapture is just as big a fanatsy as the New Agers.

Wouldn't it be nice to get at the Truth through Biblical Fact?

Tribulation has come upon our very real American Dream and soon we will all awake to Tribulation.

We believers are not subject to Gods Wrath. We have escaped it However; Gods Wrath and Tribulation are two very differnt things.

[Zemke]

I agree wrath and tribulation are two different things. I do find the pre trib position misleading and I don't agree with it but my point would be that with all the false prophets and husslers out there fleecing the flock, attacking a teaching of the rapture in such a way is unproductive especially when men like Dave Hunt fought against heresy most of his life but he happens to be pre-tribulational. People fought with him about the rapture but they made it a bigger deal than he ever did. He had always been so gospel centered and for a while all the letters and attacks were flooding his ministry criticizing and his ministry had nothing to do with the rapture. It was those opposing the rapture that hindered the mission.

There was a time I too came against pre tribulationism but found it unproductive and divisive. Most believers I meet are pre and I now use the oppurtunity when the subject comes up to springboard into other areas of scripture and give them a bigger picture. Then I can simply let them know what I believe and it causes fellowship, but calling it a fantasy stops that process and any productive learning.

We can not let the rapture be a divisive issue when there are so many other issues worthy of such. We must seek unity and love on the issue. The pre-tribbers like to say "We'll show it to you on the way up." Well I like to smile and say "My door will be open when tribulation comes."

There are men that God has used mightily like Clarence Larkin, Philadelphia early 20th century and in our day Chuck Smith and others who happen to have gotten caught in the pre trib explanation. I disagree with them but God used them in my life and these men love Jesus. We all have some things right and we all have some things wrong. With love and patients, forebearing one another in love we will come into unity. Nothing like persecution or a fire ball from the sky to gather the faithful. Just saying is all, I'm not praying for it.

Remember that Daniel said that the few will teach the many. Your time will come to explain the wrath to come, but slamming on what true brothers and sisters believe about the rapture will rarely be productive.

[Matthitjah]

I agree wrath and tribulation are two different things. I do find the pre trib position misleading and I don't agree with it but my point would be that with all the false prophets and husslers out there fleecing the flock, attacking a teaching of the rapture in such a way is unproductive especially when men like Dave Hunt fought against heresy most of his life but he happens to be pre-tribulational. People fought with him about the rapture but they made it a bigger deal than he ever did. He had always been so gospel centered and for a while all the letters and attacks were flooding his ministry criticizing and his ministry had nothing to do with the rapture. It was those opposing the rapture that hindered the mission.

There was a time I too came against pre tribulationism but found it unproductive and divisive. Most believers I meet are pre and I now use the oppurtunity when the subject comes up to springboard into other areas of scripture and give them a bigger picture. Then I can simply let them know what I believe and it causes fellowship, but calling it a fantasy stops that process and any productive learning.

We can not let the rapture be a divisive issue when there are so many other issues worthy of such. We must seek unity and love on the issue. The pre-tribbers like to say "We'll show it to you on the way up." Well I like to smile and say "My door will be open when tribulation comes."

There are men that God has used mightily like Clarence Larkin, Philadelphia early 20th century and in our day Chuck Smith and others who happen to have gotten caught in the pre trib explanation. I disagree with them but God used them in my life and these men love Jesus. We all have some things right and we all have some things wrong. With love and patients, forebearing one another in love we will come into unity. Nothing like persecution or a fire ball from the sky to gather the faithful. Just saying is all, I'm not praying for it.

Remember that Daniel said that the few will teach the many. Your time will come to explain the wrath to come, but slamming on what true brothers and sisters believe about the rapture will rarely be productive.

So if a Doctrine leads us off Mission because it's incorrect we should tolerate it?

I would add that I haven't attacked anyone. I've stated a position that isn't too popular and if you look at one of the responses that I got it struck a nerve. LOL

My point is what good is a New Agers position on the Rapture when it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Biblical Christianity. If it's off by a 1/2 inch at its base it will be off by a million miles when we get to the top of it. It's the same point with the fantasy Doctrine in the modern Western Church concerning the Rapture. It's leading us off Mission. I'm not trying to be divisive. I'm trying to get folks to think outside of the box.

[Zemke]

There are many believers on mission everyday who are pre-trib. You need to clarify your off mission statement.

It's a lack of biblical exposition, The rapture has become a major theme because of a lack of biblical exposition in our churches. It's unbalanced and repeated from script because we are not truly seeking Him, but a successful ministry. Great worship bands, wonderful sound systems, head microphones and big screens with temp. control systems and comfortable chairs and a mission budget we can boast about and councilors and tables of books with confrences and ten thousand pastors all in one place oh how glorious. We worship worship and worship the ministry rather than "The Minister" Jesus the Righteous One.

"When Jesus Christ is glorified, the Holy Spirit will come." Tozer

As stated before, using the rapture teaching as an excuse is a cop out.

I would say you're firmly in the box. Not a good excuse or reasoning you have but maybe that's just me, and as I have said before with someone slamming the rapture, the majority of all believers I have been on mission trips with, have been pre trib and the issue of the rapture was never an issue, only the mission was important. The rapture is worth a discussion but not this. I disagree with pretribulationism but I disagree with how you handle your disagreement even more.

Help them read their bibles and they will see, call what they believe fantasy and a big gulf forms and that is division.

Your approach is wrong and no amount of excuse will change that. You should really quit saying you haven't said what you have said. If you said what your point is from the start then maybe you wouldn't have to keep saying what your point is and keep changing it, that is, whatever your point is.

[bornagain2011]

Here is my take, I don't have a set in stone opinion about the rapture, if it happens I am ready, if not, I am ready to die for the Lord.

I just thought it was amusing that demons and the devil came up with a plan to deceive the masses if the rapture were to occure, the evil one tells people "they dissapeared/will dissapear because they have low vibrations and have been left behind/removed, but your vibration is raised so you will ascend to a higher realm of existance."

I read all of the comments, very insightful, lots to think about! So does anyone think 2012 might be the year of the rapture? If there is one? I think the antichrist might have to be set up first to rule. We will see! Either way, Jesus is coming back sometime and I am excited about that!

God bless!

Natalie

[Matthitjah]

There are many believers on mission everyday who are pre-trib. You need to clarify your off mission statement.

It's a lack of biblical exposition, The rapture has become a major theme because of a lack of biblical exposition in our churches. It's unbalanced and repeated from script because we are not truly seeking Him, but a successful ministry. Great worship bands, wonderful sound systems, head microphones and big screens with temp. control systems and comfortable chairs and a mission budget we can boast about and councilors and tables of books with confrences and ten thousand pastors all in one place oh how glorious. We worship worship and worship the ministry rather than "The Minister" Jesus the Righteous One.

"When Jesus Christ is glorified, the Holy Spirit will come." Tozer

As stated before, using the rapture teaching as an excuse is a cop out.

I would say you're firmly in the box. Not a good excuse or reasoning you have but maybe that's just me, and as I have said before with someone slamming the rapture, the majority of all believers I have been on mission trips with, have been pre trib and the issue of the rapture was never an issue, only the mission was important. The rapture is worth a discussion but not this. I disagree with pretribulationism but I disagree with how you handle your disagreement even more.

Help them read their bibles and they will see, call what they believe fantasy and a big gulf forms and that is division.

Your approach is wrong and no amount of excuse will change that. You should really quit saying you haven't said what you have said. If you said what your point is from the start then maybe you wouldn't have to keep saying what your point is and keep changing it, that is, whatever your point is.

You're the one looking for an argument and dissention where there isn't one.

I'm just stating an opinion. You may disgaree with the way I'm stating it but it is sparking a discussion.

Yes, it is part of the problem we have as a Western Church. Let's get at the Truth. God founded us to be Missional and were not. That is why numbers are dwindling and the Church is becoming irrelevant in the Post Modern world. It's outr fault and it begins with Folk Theology and Fables.

[Matthitjah]

The common Rapture theory in the Western Church is a hoax and has no bearing on actual Biblical facts.

It also removes the Church from her Missional position. Which is why the Western Church is so weak right now and dropping numbers fast, especially here in the States. People feel that the Church is hardly relevant anymore and the number one reason is she is off Mission. Partly because of fantasies like the current popular Rapture theory.

Those who make statements like this need more study and understanding,,there must first be an apostasy , a falling away from the WORD,,before Christ returns,,but those who speak as you often do not beleive in Christ returning to earth; there is much false teaching around today , just as scripture says there will be during the time when Jesus returns ,,I find it astounding that anyone would follow such foolishness that Jesus will not return, or that he has already ,,the harpazo is real ,,and it is to the disadvantage of those who refuse it.

Actually, I do believe that Christ will return. I also believe that we are in the Great Apostasy as we speak. Where is the popular Rapture that you preach? Where is this supposed escape from Wrath?

While you're at it, define Wrath and also define Tribulation, please.

In the Geek it is called harpazo,,,there are latin words that are the root words of rapture,,in the latin vulgate that early catholic church used, the word rapture was in there ,,,people that do not do deep studies do not learn as much as those who do

The simplicity as it has been stated many multiples of times ,is that when a person truly searches the ENTIRETY OF ALL SCRIPTURE about the topic it is more than abundantly clear,,,,but what I see here most often is those who believe as you do NEVER take into account EVERY scripture,,,Every time I bring into the discussion scripture that disproves someones theory,they always refuse to acknowledge ,deal with or discuss the scripture that proves their theory wrong,,,repeatedly here I see believers say that either Jesus will not return, or he has already returned,or the 1000 years has already begun,,nero was antichrist,,,nonsense after nonsense,, so instead of giving a full dissertation on the topic ,,I wait till the opposers offer their evidence in full ,then I will show what they have missed,,the matter includes many scriptures from many books of scripture,,,the majority of the time opposers exclusively use a very few scriptures and base their teaching on them,,

simply put it is like a recipe,,when you leave out important ingredients,,what you think you have is not what it should be,,..or when you replace important ingredients, with imitations you cannot expect to have a genuine authentic result,,,but sadly there are people who hear a teaching that "seems ' to make sense do not go back to basics and test & prove the teaching with the remainder of scripture,,where they are satisfied with a facsimile of the truth and are not willing to spend time deeply evaluating the new teaching

Ok, great, more denigration. Your trouble with the topic might start in your approach.

What you've posted has nothing whatsoever to do with defining Tribulation or Wrath.

Care to define them?

[Matthitjah]

The common Rapture theory in the Western Church is a hoax and has no bearing on actual Biblical facts.

It also removes the Church from her Missional position. Which is why the Western Church is so weak right now and dropping numbers fast, especially here in the States. People feel that the Church is hardly relevant anymore and the number one reason is she is off Mission. Partly because of fantasies like the current popular Rapture theory.

Those who make statements like this need more study and understanding,,there must first be an apostasy , a falling away from the WORD,,before Christ returns,,but those who speak as you often do not beleive in Christ returning to earth; there is much false teaching around today , just as scripture says there will be during the time when Jesus returns ,,I find it astounding that anyone would follow such foolishness that Jesus will not return, or that he has already ,,the harpazo is real ,,and it is to the disadvantage of those who refuse it.

Actually, I do believe that Christ will return. I also believe that we are in the Great Apostasy as we speak. Where is the popular Rapture that you preach? Where is this supposed escape from Wrath?

While you're at it, define Wrath and also define Tribulation, please.

In the Geek it is called harpazo,,,there are latin words that are the root words of rapture,,in the latin vulgate that early catholic church used, the word rapture was in there ,,,people that do not do deep studies do not learn as much as those who do

The simplicity as it has been stated many multiples of times ,is that when a person truly searches the ENTIRETY OF ALL SCRIPTURE about the topic it is more than abundantly clear,,,,but what I see here most often is those who believe as you do NEVER take into account EVERY scripture,,,Every time I bring into the discussion scripture that disproves someones theory,they always refuse to acknowledge ,deal with or discuss the scripture that proves their theory wrong,,,repeatedly here I see believers say that either Jesus will not return, or he has already returned,or the 1000 years has already begun,,nero was antichrist,,,nonsense after nonsense,, so instead of giving a full dissertation on the topic ,,I wait till the opposers offer their evidence in full ,then I will show what they have missed,,the matter includes many scriptures from many books of scripture,,,the majority of the time opposers exclusively use a very few scriptures and base their teaching on them,,

simply put it is like a recipe,,when you leave out important ingredients,,what you think you have is not what it should be,,..or when you replace important ingredients, with imitations you cannot expect to have a genuine authentic result,,,but sadly there are people who hear a teaching that "seems ' to make sense do not go back to basics and test & prove the teaching with the remainder of scripture,,where they are satisfied with a facsimile of the truth and are not willing to spend time deeply evaluating the new teaching

Ok, great, more denigration. Your trouble with the topic might start in your approach.

What you've posted has nothing whatsoever to do with defining Tribulation or Wrath.

Care to define them?

Actually, I do believe that Christ will return. I also believe that we are in the Great Apostasy as we speak. Where is the popular Rapture that you preach? Where is this supposed escape from Wrath?

You apparently don't even understand what you have written

You should reread my post and think about it ,it reveals more than what you were able to extract from it...

are you saying that you do not know what God's wrath is?

here is a start for you it goes on for a few chapters

Revelation 6

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Have you truly understood what 2 commandments Jesus said was highest priority??

Great, but that is not Tribulation.

I want you define them both please.

[Matthitjah]

Tribulation and God's wrath are two separate things, and you know this already. Tribulation comes at the hands of people in the world, either working under their own auspices, or under the influence of Satan. God's wrath is exactly that, God's wrath. During the tribulation, God is exacting His judgment and wrath on an unbelieving world.

See, that's all I was asking for. I actually don't get why folks feel I'm having an attitude.

I'm not being divisive. I just like to provoke folks out of the box.