I. Legalism: Defined

[GoldenEagle]

I think the problem is taking "good works" as our works. Heb4:11: "Make every effort to enter the rest..." This is our salvation-rest in Christ, through him the Father does the works in and for us. This does not mean striving to be better or more righteous or to do more; any improvement or strength is in the hands of God, and our righteousness is in Christ.

Good points in bold Numenian. Part of legalism is "the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" or judging conduct in term of adherence to what one considers good works. A good concept to establish would be what are good works and what is their purpose?

For clarification... By the way for those interested I'm not saying we should do away with the law. In fact I attest to the opposite in another thread. We're to obey God's Word out of love (God's grace) not duty (in bondage). See the thread about the 10 commandments...

See: http://www.worthychr...60#entry1881427

and

http://www.worthychr...80#entry1881856

[enoob57]

I think the problem is taking "good works" as our works. Heb4:11: "Make every effort to enter the rest..." This is our salvation-rest in Christ, through him the Father does the works in and for us. This does not mean striving to be better or more righteous or to do more; any improvement or strength is in the hands of God, and our righteousness is in Christ.

Good points in bold Numenian. Part of legalism is "the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" or judging conduct in term of adherence to what one considers good works. A good concept to establish would be what are good works and what is their purpose?

For clarification... By the way for those interested I'm not saying we should do away with the law. In fact I attest to the opposite in another thread. We're to obey God's Word out of love (God's grace) not duty (in bondage). See the thread about the 10 commandments...

See: http://www.worthychr...60#entry1881427

and

http://www.worthychr...80#entry1881856

I would like to interdict a thought in this-

For one to preside over law one must be its author or as legalism able to also do! This is why the law killed for no one could fulfill its requirements

but One... now the law has not passed away till all be fulfilled and this we see at the New Heaven and Earth and the eternal state! Thus now in Grace

it is a good friend reminding me always of the need of Jesus covering my own inability to fulfill the righteous Fathers demands! However the more

I apply to the debt that I am in by the pruchase price of The Son- I am supernaturally compelled to press toward obedience to God as this 'IS' Love

That joins in God's Heart as His Pleasure

Job 1:8

8 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job,

that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man,

one who fears God and shuns evil?"

NKJV

This passage just ooses with God's pleasure in showing satan His servant

Job... again

Mt 17:5

5 While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly

a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Hear Him!

NKJV

Knowing this about our Father and having the Spirit of Christ within us... well yeah!

Love, Steven

[Farmgal]

I think the problem is taking "good works" as our works. Heb4:11: "Make every effort to enter the rest..." This is our salvation-rest in Christ, through him the Father does the works in and for us. This does not mean striving to be better or more righteous or to do more; any improvement or strength is in the hands of God, and our righteousness is in Christ.

Good points in bold Numenian. Part of legalism is "the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" or judging conduct in term of adherence to what one considers good works. A good concept to establish would be what are good works and what is their purpose?

For clarification... By the way for those interested I'm not saying we should do away with the law. In fact I attest to the opposite in another thread. We're to obey God's Word out of love (God's grace) not duty (in bondage). See the thread about the 10 commandments...

See: http://www.worthychr...60#entry1881427

and

http://www.worthychr...80#entry1881856

God's grace empowers us to obey AND do the works God has prepared for us. I will stand by; if you do not have works you do not have faith, faith without works is dead.

The churches today are not teaching people how to be disciples of Christ through faith and action. It is not a lay down faith, it is one of boldness, empowerment, courage and strength, we do have Christ in us, He is doing His work in and through us:

It leads to the problem, however, why is the church not at work? If we as a Body were at work the effects would be tremendous, the world would stand up and notice. Why isn't it happening?

If I think this way - am I being legalistic? The Body of Christ needs to get to work!

[GoldenEagle]

I think the problem is taking "good works" as our works. Heb4:11: "Make every effort to enter the rest..." This is our salvation-rest in Christ, through him the Father does the works in and for us. This does not mean striving to be better or more righteous or to do more; any improvement or strength is in the hands of God, and our righteousness is in Christ.

Good points in bold Numenian. Part of legalism is "the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" or judging conduct in term of adherence to what one considers good works. A good concept to establish would be what are good works and what is their purpose?

For clarification... By the way for those interested I'm not saying we should do away with the law. In fact I attest to the opposite in another thread. We're to obey God's Word out of love (God's grace) not duty (in bondage). See the thread about the 10 commandments...

See: http://www.worthychr...60#entry1881427

and

http://www.worthychr...80#entry1881856

God's grace empowers us to obey AND do the works God has prepared for us. I will stand by; if you do not have works you do not have faith, faith without works is dead.

The churches today are not teaching people how to be disciples of Christ through faith and action. It is not a lay down faith, it is one of boldness, empowerment, courage and strength, we do have Christ in us, He is doing His work in and through us:

It leads to the problem, however, why is the church not at work? If we as a Body were at work the effects would be tremendous, the world would stand up and notice. Why isn't it happening?

If I think this way - am I being legalistic? The Body of Christ needs to get to work!

I agree with you. Faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

No I don't think you're being legalistic by saying Christians should be about good works. The Bible says as much so it is true.

But I ask again what are good works?

What is the purpose of good works?

[Farmgal]

I think the problem is taking "good works" as our works. Heb4:11: "Make every effort to enter the rest..." This is our salvation-rest in Christ, through him the Father does the works in and for us. This does not mean striving to be better or more righteous or to do more; any improvement or strength is in the hands of God, and our righteousness is in Christ.

Good points in bold Numenian. Part of legalism is "the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws" or judging conduct in term of adherence to what one considers good works. A good concept to establish would be what are good works and what is their purpose?

For clarification... By the way for those interested I'm not saying we should do away with the law. In fact I attest to the opposite in another thread. We're to obey God's Word out of love (God's grace) not duty (in bondage). See the thread about the 10 commandments...

See: http://www.worthychr...60#entry1881427

and

http://www.worthychr...80#entry1881856

God's grace empowers us to obey AND do the works God has prepared for us. I will stand by; if you do not have works you do not have faith, faith without works is dead.

The churches today are not teaching people how to be disciples of Christ through faith and action. It is not a lay down faith, it is one of boldness, empowerment, courage and strength, we do have Christ in us, He is doing His work in and through us:

It leads to the problem, however, why is the church not at work? If we as a Body were at work the effects would be tremendous, the world would stand up and notice. Why isn't it happening?

If I think this way - am I being legalistic? The Body of Christ needs to get to work!

I agree with you. Faith without works is dead. (James 2:14-26)

No I don't think you're being legalistic by saying Christians should be about good works. The Bible says as much so it is true.

But I ask again what are good works?

What is the purpose of good works?

We should be doing the work of Christ. As the Body of Christ, we are participating with God in advancing His Kingdom. The Kingdom is in us and all around us, Jesus was all about it and if we are the Body, we should be following Him in the same. I don't know what God's work for you is and you don't know what mine is - but we can both know it will be all about advancing His Kingdom......and praise Him that we have this most awesome privilege!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GoldenEagle]

Seems he mistook this verse...For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10 for the one in question.

Thanks. This is true. The law is one. It is the law of Moses, or a better way of stating it is to say it was God's laws given to us through his servant Moses? It is not multiple laws, but one law with many parts. As such, if I break any one thing in the law, I broke the law of Moses. This isn't saying that it is ok to ignore the law because we are bound to break it. That is what people are implying today. We are to strive to live right to the best of our ability, but to recognize that all will inadvertantly fall short. As such, we all need a Savior.

Here is what most of the anti-legalists teach today. They teach the law was given to show us that we can't follow it and need a Savior. I reject that. The law was given to show us God's standard of holiness. They teach that since we can't possibly live up to God's standards, we may as well not try, because it is futile. I believe we are to try our best to follow it, even though we will at times mess up. Under the law, they had animal sacrifice to cover sins done in error. Today, we confess our sins, and trust that through faith in Jesus sacrifice on the cross, the Father will be faithful to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

Yes this is correct RunningGator James 2:10. Thank you. Sorry about the confusion Butero.

We seem to be going around in circles with this topic. I agree the law shows the standard of God's holiness. I also believe the law points to our lack of holiness. Surely we can agree on that?

I do agree that Christ is our atoning sacrifice and we can approach God directly. That God overlooks our sins as Christians because of Christ. He forgets them and remembers them no more. We are not to live in consistent, habitual sin. We are to learn from our mistakes and seek to be more like Christ.

Considering I have been asking questions and debating the validity of legalism I assume by "they" I am included in this group (anti-legalists). Lol.

In discussing legalism I for one have never said that we should not try to follow God's standards. In fact I think it's very important for every Christian to know and follow the entire Bible to the best of their ability out of a grateful loving heart to the glory of God. I'm simply questioning if the standards certain people have should be enforced on everyone to be considered proper or holy?

Hope this was a bit clearer. God bless!

In Christ,

GE

[F.R.O.G.]

Hello....

It seems to me, that a legalist is one who loves God, but is wrong by living our their life by the letter of the law and forcing it upon others rather than living by the spirit of the law in love. I am under Grace, not the law. My sins are forgiven, past, present and future when I believed upon Jesus Christ as the Son of God, that He paid the debt I could not pay. I am washed in the Blood of Jesus Christ, made a new creation, having a new heart. That new heart should show "love of the bretheren"! If we disagree, we should agree to disagree in grace and love. If I love God, He will show me the errors of my ways. We can disagree on the "minors", but not on the "majors". By that I mean, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not the Cosmic Christ, we are saved by Grace not by works, The Bible is the Living Word of God, not just another religious book. In the Body of Christ we have many demonations, all claiming to be the true way of worship and etc. I believe when one becomes legalistic, at some point thier opinion of what and how they believe, is superior to those around them. The Bible can be misquoted, twisted and taken out of context to prove one's view and when that happens the legalist will not back down, and your only option is to give them to God and pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to them. However, if one keeps hardening their heart to the truth, they will slide into " spiritual darkness" because they do not have a "love for the truth". Jesus says, " I am Truth." The question is: Do I want the "truth" or do I want to be "right" even if I am wrong. Pride is a wicked web we weave when we deceive oneself.

Take Care and God Bless <>< frog

[GoldenEagle]

Thanks. This is true. The law is one. It is the law of Moses, or a better way of stating it is to say it was God's laws given to us through his servant Moses? It is not multiple laws, but one law with many parts. As such, if I break any one thing in the law, I broke the law of Moses. This isn't saying that it is ok to ignore the law because we are bound to break it. That is what people are implying today. We are to strive to live right to the best of our ability, but to recognize that all will inadvertantly fall short. As such, we all need a Savior.

Here is what most of the anti-legalists teach today. They teach the law was given to show us that we can't follow it and need a Savior. I reject that. The law was given to show us God's standard of holiness. They teach that since we can't possibly live up to God's standards, we may as well not try, because it is futile. I believe we are to try our best to follow it, even though we will at times mess up. Under the law, they had animal sacrifice to cover sins done in error. Today, we confess our sins, and trust that through faith in Jesus sacrifice on the cross, the Father will be faithful to forgive our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

I have to agree with the Eagle on this. I am sure you would consider me an "anti-legalist", but what I have an issue with is not God's law, it is the rules made up by men that are not found in God's law. Do this, dont do that...If I wish to have a beer or a glass of wine with my dinner I should not be condemed for doing so.

That is an excellent example RunningGator. I'll open this up to add to the discussion. Is drinking a glass of wine a sin? What does the Bible say regarding drinking?

[GoldenEagle]

Hello....

It seems to me, that a legalist is one who loves God, but is wrong by living our their life by the letter of the law and forcing it upon others rather than living by the spirit of the law in love. I am under Grace, not the law. My sins are forgiven, past, present and future when I believed upon Jesus Christ as the Son of God, that He paid the debt I could not pay. I am washed in the Blood of Jesus Christ, made a new creation, having a new heart. That new heart should show "love of the bretheren"! If we disagree, we should agree to disagree in grace and love. If I love God, He will show me the errors of my ways. We can disagree on the "minors", but not on the "majors". By that I mean, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not the Cosmic Christ, we are saved by Grace not by works, The Bible is the Living Word of God, not just another religious book. In the Body of Christ we have many demonations, all claiming to be the true way of worship and etc. I believe when one becomes legalistic, at some point thier opinion of what and how they believe, is superior to those around them. The Bible can be misquoted, twisted and taken out of context to prove one's view and when that happens the legalist will not back down, and your only option is to give them to God and pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth to them. However, if one keeps hardening their heart to the truth, they will slide into " spiritual darkness" because they do not have a "love for the truth". Jesus says, " I am Truth." The question is: Do I want the "truth" or do I want to be "right" even if I am wrong. Pride is a wicked web we weave when we deceive oneself.

Take Care and God Bless <>< frog

This is a great perspective Frog particularly what is underlined. Sometimes I feel that people are more concerned with winning an argument or being right than listening to others perspectives and coming to the truth together as found in God's Word. I feel sometimes some view admitting the possibility that there is a valid point to another's perspective as somehow their perspective becomes invalid.

[allofgrace]

I must admit that I only read about 3 pages of what others have said on this but as I think about legalism in the scriptures it seems to me that legalism is about trying to be declared righteous by the keeping of the law.

Rom 10:4 Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

And in

Rom 8:2-4 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. ³ For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

This seems to me to be the importance of understanding the importance of the law given by the Lord in the OT. The law was given to show that transgression of it broke the holiness that God expected in the life of His people. The sacrifices were made to demonstrate that without the shedding of blood there was no forgiveness, but until Christ Jesus laid down His life the blood sacrifices passed over the sin, it did not abolish the sin debt as Romans 8 speaks. The OT saints believed God as Abraham in Gen 15:6 and were declared righteous by faith just as we in the NT. And the NT covenant per Romans 10:4 teaches that righteousness only comes by faith in Jesus Christ and if as the Jews that Paul mentioned there, if one tries by their obedience to become righteous by their deeds, to me, that is legalism and has no merit nor reward. But being placed in Christ as scripture teaches now the law is written not on stone but on our hearts and the believer is by their new nature given the desire by the Holy Spirit to obey the law which is now written on their hearts Rom 8:14;

Gal 5:16; 22-25 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. ²⁴ And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. ²⁵ If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I may not have pieced this together completely the way I wanted to, but it does demonstrate my point. But the one offering of the Lord has perfected forever those in Christ Jesus(Heb 10:14). So obedience is expected and should be a growing process in the life of the believer. A progressive sanctification in their walk and talk which is or should be the result of perfect sanctification credited to us in Christ. We are perfect in Christ, but complete perfection or holiness in our walk comes with the glorified body which we get in glory (1 Cor 15).

So if one keep the law or does anything to become righteous by any deed, to me is legalism, but if it is done by faith, it is obedience and is expected. I hope this was not to confusing. I did want to mention the fruit of the Spirit which I believe is love and the other 8 are attributes of the love of God increasing in us and through us to others. It is a faith walk, Christ living in us and through us…

Gal 2:17-21 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! ¹⁸ For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. ¹⁹ For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. ²⁰ I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. ²¹ I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Edited December 10, 2012 by GoldenEagle
Formatting... Difficult to differentiate between poster's comments and Scripture?