New City Jerusalem

[AlexanderJ]

...who is a rock save our God?

Psalms 18:31

Not everything in the Bible should be taken literally. For example, God is not a literal "rock". "Rock" is simply a symbolic metaphor signifying trustworthiness and strength.

[OneLight]

Jesus spoke in parables, hyperbole, figurative language. He used simile's and hardly ever spoke in straightforward language. When the Disciples asked Him why - what did He say? Likewise a lot of OT prophesy was also concealed in figurative language. The bottom line is that Jesus does not want part of his audience to understand the Message. And they didn't - for example: the religious leaders of His day didn't have a clue about Him being the Messiah dispite the fact that the OT is loaded with types and shadows of Jesus. The Disciples also before Pentecost 30AD thought in a very soulish way (literal.) They did not understand a lot of what He was doing and saying. However after Pentecost this seems to have changed. Jesus always spoke directly to the spirit of the individual – after all he said his words were spirit and truth.

It was a scribe or copiest who wrote the first three verses of Revelation and he stated that John had "SIGNIFIED" the book - in other words it was put into symbolic or Apocalyptic language. So we can't take the book as literal. God in the OT writes much of Prophesy in this coded language meant for the remnant of Israel (His true followers) and not the proud and haughty. Here is the pattern that I find in scripture. God inserts outrageous comments into the text to show his remnant that he is not speaking literally. When Jesus was using an idiom to describe His second coming he states that the stars will fall from heaven. This is a technical impossibility - so from that we understand that He is using an idiom and it is not literal. Zechariah said that “all nations would come against Israel" – not possible inhistory or in our future so it is not a literal war that he is talking about. He further states that Egypt will have no rain – it doesn't rain in Egypt as it is totally watered by the Nile. And there are many more.

So when this city comes down out of heaven, which is 1,500 mils cubed - then you know that this is symbolic and not literal. Where did the governments of the world come from? Up from the earth and sea – the government of God came down from heaven. This city is cubed – just like the Holy of Holies, the Temple building, and the Temple and Temple Mount of Herod was. This is symbolic of the government and residence of God – the New Covenant people who are the stones that construct this temple. There is no way that a 1,500 mile cubed city will alight on Jerusalem in the future.

Why is it impossible for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel? Why is it impossible for God to actually recreate the heavens and earth that would house a 1500 cubic city? Seems to me that since you don't understand that He can and will, you just suggest it is symbolic.

That's one of the convient things about being a Futurist - since everything is literal and in the future how can anything they say be proven wrong? In all of history I don't find a single case where "All the nations" ever came against Israel. Nor is it possible in the future because there are 196 countries in the world today. There is only one place in history where all of the nations came against Israel and that was at the time of the crucifixion. At that time God brought all the nations against Israel where he condemned them all to death and destroyed them all - spiritually. Spiritual is eternal and humans are just temporal. God is more concerned about forever and worked for about 4,000 years to set up and implement his plan of salvation - this was his most important objective in history. This judgment is spoken of symbolically in Isaiah chapter 63.

You can't prove a Futurist wrong when he puts everything in the future, but in the instances that they have set dates - they were all proven wrong. As I have often said - you cannot name even one Futurist speculation that has come to pass in the last 60 years - no not one. And so the credibility of the Futurist is measured from past history and not on their sensational, exciting and spectacular claims for the future.

You are throwing a blanket over scripture if someone sees part of scripture as literal and part as symbolic. We are to rightly divide His words through the teachings of the Holy Spirit, not through our own understanding. Not everything is literal and not everything is symbolic. I suggest to seek to understand the difference.

I don't really know where to start in my reply to you. But, I will try by addressing your comparison of historical events having to govern future events. For years historical events stated that if may were to fly, God would of given them wings, yet, we have airplanes. Historical events would have us believe that it would take months to cross the great oceans, yet today we can do so in hours. Your theory does not hold up at all.

Next, you claim that all nations came against Israel at the time of the Crucifixion. This is a far stretch of the spiritual idea, but can be seen as such, but what is spoken of is in the prophetic books in the physical realm. All the nations will come against God in Israel. There is no getting away from this fact unless you do not believe scripture. To place this physical event at the time Christ died is not following Gods word at all. Nobody is even discussing salvation.

Why are you trying to prove anyone wrong when it is scripture they are talking about? It was those who looked at Scripture and claimed that Israel must become a nation again was proven correct in 1948. They were considered futurist, were they not? What do you have against anyone who looks toward the fulfillment of prophecy in the future?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, OneLight.

I have always wondered how the length, breadth and heigth can be equal that the top of a pyramid?

Revelation 21:16

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

Look, every three-dimensional object has the three dimensions of length, width, and height. Even a SPHERE has a length, a width, and a height! It doesn't matter the shape of the object. If it is "three-dimensional" or "3D," it will have length, width, and height! "Two-dimensional" or "2D" is a flat drawing, like any picture that you might have on the wall. It has length and width, but no depth (which would be the height of objects sticking out of the picture into the room or into the wall beyond the room). The TV set that most people have are 2D. This is why movie productions have special techniques to show depth, like spinning the camera shot, or panning the scene. When someone goes into a building in the movie, the viewer can't get up and look at the TV from the side to see where that person went! The images that we are shown merely have the illusion of three dimensions but they truly only have two.

If you will draw a small square in the center of a page, say 2 inches by 2 inches, and then draw four triangles, each containing one of the sides of the square, radiating out from the square, and all four of them with the same lengths of lines, say 2.45 inches (approximately the square root of 6), that is, all 8 of the lines you draw outside the square are 2.45 inches in length, you could cut along the perimeter of this eight-sided polygon to make a four-pointed star. Then, if you folded along each of the four sides of the center square and joined them along the sides all the way until they formed a point at the top, you would have a pyramid that "lieth foursquare" with a length of 2 inches, a width of 2 inches, and a height of 2 inches! That's how a three-dimensional object such as the pyramid you just made can have a length the same as the width and the height. (Btw, 0.45 = 9/20 which is just a fraction larger than 7/16, since most rulers will be divided no more precisely than 16ths. Also, the height of each of the 4 triangles you make will be 2.236 inches from its base, the side of the square, and 0.236 is just a fraction smaller than 1/4 or 4/16. 2.236 is approximately the square root of 5.)

This is simple geometry, and it can be a fun little project to do. But, the importance of this is to see how the height of the pyramid can still be the same as the length and the width.

[Fez]

After reading the masses of stuff in this thread what can I conclude?

That some people think they will live in a pyramid, and some in a cube.

And it is important, how?

Except as a fun exercise in amateur prophecy? (nothing wrong with that as long as it does not draw conclusions that are impossible to verify I guess)

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Fez.

After reading the masses of stuff in this thread what can I conclude?

That some people think they will live in a pyramid, and some in a cube.

And it is important, how?

Except as a fun exercise in amateur prophecy? (nothing wrong with that as long as it does not draw conclusions that are impossible to verify I guess)

It is important in the understanding of the REST of prophecy! For instance, did you know that there are several locations when the prophecies about Mount Zion and Jerusalem are MIXED or EQUATED? Why would that be? Well, I believe that it's because the city IS the mountain, and vice versa! Consider these passages, for instance:

Psalm 48:1-2

1 Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.

2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

KJV

Hebrews 12:22-24

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

KJV

The Hebrew of Psalm 48:1-2 is this (transliterated):

Psalm 48:1-3

48:1 Shiyr mizmowr libneey Qorach.

2 Gaadowl YHWH uwmhulaal m'od b`iyr Eloheeynuw Har qaadshow:

3 Yfeeh nowf msows kaal haa'aarets Har Tsiyown yarkteey tsaafown qiryat

Melekh Raav:

48:1 Shiyr = 48:1 A-song

mizmowr = of-psalm

libneey = for-the-sons

Qorach: = of-Qorach/Korah.

2 Gaadowl = 2 Great

YHWH = [the]-LORD

uwmhulaal = and-to-be-praised

m'od = greatly

b`iyr = in-[the]-city

Eloheeynuw = of-our-God

Har = Mountain

qaadshow: = of-His-holiness.

3 Yfeeh = 3 Beautiful/pleasant

nowf = of-position

msows = joy

kaal = of-all

haa'aarets = the-earth/land

Har = Mountain

Tsiyown = of-Zion

yarkteey = aligned-by

tsaafown = north

qiryat = building/city

Melekh = of-[the]-King

Raav: = Honored/High-Ranking.

48:1 A-song of-psalm for-the-sons of-Qorach/Korah.

2 Great [the]-LORD and-to-be-praised greatly in-[the]-city of-our-God

Mountain of-His-holiness.

3 Beautiful/pleasant of-position joy of-all the-earth/land Mountain of-

Zion aligned-by north [the]-building/city of-[the]-King Honored/High-

Ranking.

Notice how it treats the city AS the mountain! Furthermore, it calls the mountain a BUILDING!

Now, look at the Greek of Hebrews 12:22 in particular:

Hebrews 12:22-24

12:22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, paneegurei

23 kai ekkleesia proototokoon apogegrammenoon en ouranois kai kritee Theoo pantoon kai pneumasi dikaioon teteleioomenoon

24 kai diatheekees neas Mesitee Ieesou kai haimati hrantismou kreitton lalounti para ton Habel.

12:22 Alla = 12:22 But

proseleeluthate = ye-are-come-toward

Sioon = Tsiown/Zion

orei = mountain

kai = and

polei = city

Theou = of-God

zoontos, = living,

Ierousaleem = Yerushalayim/Jerusalem

epouranioo, = from-above-the-sky

kai = and

muriasin = a-"myriad"/ten-thousand

aggeloon, = of-messengers/angels,

paneegurei = a-meeting-of-all

23 kai = 23 and

ekkleesia = a-called-out-[assembly]/church

proototokoon = of-the-firstborn (plural)

apogegrammenoon = which-are-written/recorded

en = in

ouranois = [the]-skies

kai = and

Kritee = to-Judge

Theoo = God

pantoon = of-all

kai = and

pneumasi = to-[the]-spirits

dikaioon = of-[the]-just/justified/equitable-[ones]

teteleioomenoon = made-mature

24 kai = 24 and

diatheekees = of-a-Covenant

neas = New

Mesitee = to-Mediator/Go-Between

Ieesou = Yeshua`/Jesus

kai = and

haimati = to-[the]-blood

hrantismou = of-sprinkling

kreitton = stronger/nobler/better

lalounti = that-speaks

para = more-than/near/at

ton = of-the

Habel. = Hevel/Abel.

12:22 But ye-are-come-toward Tsiown/Zion mountain and city of-God living, Yerushalayim/Jerusalem from-above-the-sky and a-"myriad"/ten-thousand of-messengers/angels, a-meeting-of-all

23 and a-called-out-[assembly]/church of-the-firstborn (plural) which-are-written/recorded in [the]-skies and to-Judge God of-all and to-[the]-spirits of-[the]-just/justified/equitable-[ones] made-mature

24 and of-a-Covenant New to-Mediator/Go-Between Yeshua`/Jesus and to-[the]-blood of-sprinkling stronger/nobler/better that-speaks more-than/near/at of-the Hevel/Abel.

Notice here how Tsiown (Zion) is called both the mountain AND the city! Then it is named "Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) From Above the Sky."

All of this is BARELY seen in the English versions we have!

There are a myriad (to borrow from the Greek) of little things that all add up to a better, more tangible idea of what we are to expect, and as these things become more tangible, so our expectations become more concrete!

Paul said to Timothy,

2 Timothy 3:13-17

...

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures (the Tanakh, the Old Testament; they had no other at the time), which are able to make thee wise unto salvation (rescue/deliverance) through faith (trust) which is in Christ Jesus (the Messiah Yeshua`).

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God (Elohiym), and is profitable for doctrine (teaching), for reproof (scolding), for correction (redirection), for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God (Elohiym's man) may be perfect (mature), throughly furnished (completely equipped) unto all good works.

KJV

The more that one learns from the Scriptures, the more attuned that one will be to the GOD of the Scriptures! The more that one learns about the GOD of the Scriptures - not just the things about God but the ATTITUDE of God, the TRUSTWORTHINESS (FAITHFULNESS) of God, and the LOVE God has for His children - the more one will be able to TRUST GOD (HAVE FAITH IN GOD), for he will learn that he CAN trust God! We all know we should; but not many of us know we can!

All of the prophecy schemas and positions that people hold, all of the charts that they can draw, all of the eschatologies they can dream up mean NOTHING if it's not REAL! To borrow from a popular commercial, we need to be "grounded to the ground!" We need to get our heads out of the ethereal, intangible, airy, "heaven" of clouds and mist and pearly gates and get our feet back on the GROUND! The New Jerusalem, which CONTAINS the throne of God and of the Lamb, will be LANDING ON THE NEW EARTH!!! It's REAL! It's TANGIBLE! It's CONCRETE! (Actually, it's mostly JASPER and GOLD!) It's PHYSICAL! And, it's something we CAN COUNT ON!

The more REAL it is to us, the more EXPECTATION we will have for our future! And, the EXPECTATION we have for our future, the more EXCITED we will get to be there! And, the more EXCITED we will get to be there, we won't have to be told to witness; we won't have to be prodded to witness; we won't even have to force ourselves to witness to others! It'll just bubble out of us because of how excited we are!

BUT! BUT, we have to be GROUNDED in what we believe! We have to KNOW the Scriptures so well, that NO ONE will be able to "throw a wet blanket" on our EXPECTATIONS and EXCITEMENT, and a picture - even if only in our minds - is worth a THOUSAND words! It's our ANCHOR and our MOORINGS!

So, the picture needs to be concrete. But, it also needs to be accurate to the text!

John said that he saw "the throne of God and of the Lamb" in the city. He also said that the river of the water of life flowed FROM that throne. (Rev. 22:1-5)

In a cube, where would "the throne of God and of the Lamb" be? Wouldn't it make sense that it would be in the very center of the cube? Would it make sense to have people living in the city above the Throne of God? Since the city will be sitting on the New Earth, affected by the gravity of the New Earth, how would the water flow upward to them?

In a pyramid, where would the throne of God and of the Lamb be? Wouldn't it make sense that it would be at the pinnacle or in the capstone of the pyramid? NOW which way would the water have to flow? It would flow downward, NATURALLY following the pull of gravity. It would also be able to start at one point and divide and spread to all parts of the city without any problem at all. The Scriptures above also say that it flows down the middle of the Street of the city as the medians of our interstate highways do. In fact, we are told that on either side of the river is the species known as the "tree of life." So, there is a beautiful park that is in the middle of the Street of the city that runs with the Street for miles and miles. This Street is no mere walkway! It must be a HUGE thoroughfare!

Did you know that the word "paradise," which is a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos" which in turn is a transliteration of the Hebrew word "pardeec" (pronounced "par-DACE"), means a "PARK" or "ORCHARD"?

Now, where would this Street eventually go? Wouldn't it make sense to be connected to the twelve gates of the city that exit to the New Earth? I believe that both the river of the water of life and the tree of life spill out onto the New Earth through these gates! The river of the water of life will be divided into twelve rivers, three rivers each heading in one of the four compass directions.

Consider these verses:

Psalm 118:22-26

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner (the chief stone of the angle; the capstone!).

23 This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.

KJV

Zechariah 4:6-7

6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel (an ancestor of Yeshua`), saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain (not flattened but DWARFED): and he shall bring forth the headstone (capstone!) thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

KJV

These are just SOME of the reasons why it is important to know what John was looking at when he was shown the New Jerusalem.

[Montana Marv]

But, When ones puts all in or around 70 AD; It definately can be proved false. One MUST make Scripture anything but literal. When red is red, it is red. When 1000 years is 1000 years, it is 1000 years. When 1/4 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/4 is destroyed. When 1/3 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/3 is destroyed. Whenthe locust from the abyss last 5 months, they last 5 months.

In Christ

Montana Marv

How is one supposed to know when they are to understand something literally rather than spiritually? I have had issues with my understanding because of this very problem. How to explicitly know when the sea is simply water in large basins as opposed to the sea of humanity that knows not God? How do I know if the world to come will not have large bodies of water as in there was no more sea or if that text is actually saying that the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God and there be no more living who has not this knowledge? I personally have difficulty discerning the two. When is wheat simply food that grows out of the ground and not the elect of God? Oil is oil instead of the anointing? Wine only wine instead of the Holy Spirit of God? When is a bow a bow of peace as in the rainbow and not a bow of war?

I have certain inner convictions about these things that lead me to believe a certain train of events is on the horizon and coming to pass in short order. I also understand that God himself said that he will send a delusion that those who love not the truth would believe a lie instead and be damned. All of these things like the New City Jerusalem are a part of that which is spoken of. Many times through out the bible Jerusalem is spoken of as the inhabitants themselves and not the land. One must have a concrete way of discerning when it is one or when it is the other. The New City Jerusalem being labeled a bride for her husband seems to speak to me as it does with personification. It is spoken of to have had a certain foundation and all that but even we as people have been called precious stones in Gods temple. Gold, silver and precious stones yet in Jerusalem the streets are paved with gold.

So what key do you use to understand the when what is what in the scripture?

Gary

Gary

What do you mean by Spiritually? A life lesson! Or some other factor. Just because someone does not know what the Scripture means, does not nesecerily mean it is literal or spiritual. We are unaware to a degree about God/Christ, that is why we must be given down to earth examples of what God/Christ is like (a rock, a good sheppard, a tree of life, a mother hen, the Father, a cleft in a rock, the cornerstone, the creator, the absolute authority)

Now back to being literal; if there are specific descriptions; location, time reference, numbers relating to something or other adjetives; I call this something literal. [Jonah being is the belly of a great fish for 3 days and 3 nights] If it a medipor, a word without a descriptions, this could still be literal or mediphor. If there is action put to a word, I would call the word literal before anything else.

The word "beast" could be a kingdom, or a person, or animals of the field. It all depends on the context of the subject matter. If it says 1/4 of all mankind are to die, I take this as literal (1/4, mankind, die). If it says that 1/3 of the sea turns to blood (or like blood), I take this as literal. If it says an army of 200 million come out of the East (army, 200 million, east), I take them all as literal. When they cross over the Euphrates River on dry land, I take this as literal. Christ will be coming down from heaven to earth on a White Horse, Literal.

Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike the nations, Mediphor. But it could be literal. His spoken Word.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OneLight]

Shalom, OneLight.

I have always wondered how the length, breadth and heigth can be equal that the top of a pyramid?

Revelation 21:16

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

Look, every three-dimensional object has the three dimensions of length, width, and height. Even a SPHERE has a length, a width, and a height! It doesn't matter the shape of the object. If it is "three-dimensional" or "3D," it will have length, width, and height! "Two-dimensional" or "2D" is a flat drawing, like any picture that you might have on the wall. It has length and width, but no depth (which would be the height of objects sticking out of the picture into the room or into the wall beyond the room). The TV set that most people have are 2D. This is why movie productions have special techniques to show depth, like spinning the camera shot, or panning the scene. When someone goes into a building in the movie, the viewer can't get up and look at the TV from the side to see where that person went! The images that we are shown merely have the illusion of three dimensions but they truly only have two.

If you will draw a small square in the center of a page, say 2 inches by 2 inches, and then draw four triangles, each containing one of the sides of the square, radiating out from the square, and all four of them with the same lengths of lines, say 2.45 inches (approximately the square root of 6), that is, all 8 of the lines you draw outside the square are 2.45 inches in length, you could cut along the perimeter of this eight-sided polygon to make a four-pointed star. Then, if you folded along each of the four sides of the center square and joined them along the sides all the way until they formed a point at the top, you would have a pyramid that "lieth foursquare" with a length of 2 inches, a width of 2 inches, and a height of 2 inches! That's how a three-dimensional object such as the pyramid you just made can have a length the same as the width and the height. (Btw, 0.45 = 9/20 which is just a fraction larger than 7/16, since most rulers will be divided no more precisely than 16ths. Also, the height of each of the 4 triangles you make will be 2.236 inches from its base, the side of the square, and 0.236 is just a fraction smaller than 1/4 or 4/16. 2.236 is approximately the square root of 5.)

This is simple geometry, and it can be a fun little project to do. But, the importance of this is to see how the height of the pyramid can still be the same as the length and the width.

You fail to answer the question. How is the length, breadth and height equal at the top of a pyramid?

[Sonseeahray]

I have always wondered how the length, breadth and heigth can be equal that the top of a pyramid?

Revelation 21:16

The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.

This verse is what leads me to think 'cube' and not pyramid.

Jesus spoke in parables, hyperbole, figurative language. He used simile's and hardly ever spoke in straightforward language. When the Disciples asked Him why - what did He say? Likewise a lot of OT prophesy was also concealed in figurative language. The bottom line is that Jesus does not want part of his audience to understand the Message. And they didn't - for example: the religious leaders of His day didn't have a clue about Him being the Messiah dispite the fact that the OT is loaded with types and shadows of Jesus. The Disciples also before Pentecost 30AD thought in a very soulish way (literal.) They did not understand a lot of what He was doing and saying. However after Pentecost this seems to have changed. Jesus always spoke directly to the spirit of the individual – after all he said his words were spirit and truth.

It was a scribe or copiest who wrote the first three verses of Revelation and he stated that John had "SIGNIFIED" the book - in other words it was put into symbolic or Apocalyptic language. So we can't take the book as literal. God in the OT writes much of Prophesy in this coded language meant for the remnant of Israel (His true followers) and not the proud and haughty. Here is the pattern that I find in scripture. God inserts outrageous comments into the text to show his remnant that he is not speaking literally. When Jesus was using an idiom to describe His second coming he states that the stars will fall from heaven. This is a technical impossibility - so from that we understand that He is using an idiom and it is not literal. Zechariah said that “all nations would come against Israel" – not possible inhistory or in our future so it is not a literal war that he is talking about. He further states that Egypt will have no rain – it doesn't rain in Egypt as it is totally watered by the Nile. And there are many more.

So when this city comes down out of heaven, which is 1,500 mils cubed - then you know that this is symbolic and not literal. Where did the governments of the world come from? Up from the earth and sea – the government of God came down from heaven. This city is cubed – just like the Holy of Holies, the Temple building, and the Temple and Temple Mount of Herod was. This is symbolic of the government and residence of God – the New Covenant people who are the stones that construct this temple. There is no way that a 1,500 mile cubed city will alight on Jerusalem in the future.

Why is it impossible for all the nations of the world to turn against Israel? Why is it impossible for God to actually recreate the heavens and earth that would house a 1500 cubic city? Seems to me that since you don't understand that He can and will, you just suggest it is symbolic.

That's one of the convient things about being a Futurist - since everything is literal and in the future how can anything they say be proven wrong? In all of history I don't find a single case where "All the nations" ever came against Israel. Nor is it possible in the future because there are 196 countries in the world today. There is only one place in history where all of the nations came against Israel and that was at the time of the crucifixion. At that time God brought all the nations against Israel where he condemned them all to death and destroyed them all - spiritually. Spiritual is eternal and humans are just temporal. God is more concerned about forever and worked for about 4,000 years to set up and implement his plan of salvation - this was his most important objective in history. This judgment is spoken of symbolically in Isaiah chapter 63.

You can't prove a Futurist wrong when he puts everything in the future, but in the instances that they have set dates - they were all proven wrong. As I have often said - you cannot name even one Futurist speculation that has come to pass in the last 60 years - no not one. And so the credibility of the Futurist is measured from past history and not on their sensational, exciting and spectacular claims for the future.

How do you understand Revelation 20, Sonseeahray? I'm not a pre-millenialist, I understand most of Revelation as having past, being fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and the millennium having begun after that destruction and it also being fulfilled and where we are on the timeline as about Rev 20:9 with Gog leading Magog against us. Most everyone else here is pre-millennial and futurist.

About 15 years ago I made a copy of all of the books written on Revelation from the library of congress in the last couple hundred years. I went to my local library and used their lending service to obtain some of these books - sequentially. (Some I could not obtain because of their high value.) Over the years I have read about 60 books on Revelation and still don't know what it means in total. I have not been comfortable with the majority of ideas that are commonly held today. Rev 20 is one of those texts and I have put this chapter in the category of "awaiting further light." So I don't have an answer that makes total sense to me yet.

I don't see an early date for Revelation. The book seems to fit history better in the time of Domitian. I think that Ezekiel was prophesing the coming (in his day) of Antiochus (Gog and Magog) who put the Jews through a terrible time of tribulation. Ezekiel is also written in symbolic language so it is difficult in our day to connect the two but there are definate benchmarks to be found by comparing the text of Ezekiel 38-39 to the Maccabees and Josephus. Ezekiel and John were not prophesying the same event that would have to have been fulfilled after the book of Revelation was written. No the way I see it Ezekiel (and Daniel) prophesied the same significant event and we know from history that Antiochus had control of the Temple for exactly three years ending in what -164/163BC?. It took another 6 months to cleanse it of the desecration that ocurred there. The total time was 42 months or 3 1/2 years. John was taking symbols out of the past in order to communicate to those in the first century. The symbol of Gog and Magog and the number 42 stands for a time of intense persecution. The fall of Jerusalem was also another 3 1/2 years of tribulation or 42 months.

Jesus became King of Kings at the cross and his rule and reign began at that time legally, but the Church was empowered on the day of Pentecost just 50 days later - I think that was the beginning of the rule and reign of Messiah and of course it continues to this day. This is the 1,000 years. This idea was expressed as "1,000 years" for the simple reason that God is not sharing the day and hour of Christ's return so it had to be symbolized.

[Fez]

Shalom, Fez.

After reading the masses of stuff in this thread what can I conclude?

That some people think they will live in a pyramid, and some in a cube.

And it is important, how?

Except as a fun exercise in amateur prophecy? (nothing wrong with that as long as it does not draw conclusions that are impossible to verify I guess)

It is important in the understanding of the REST of prophecy! For instance, did you know that there are several locations when the prophecies about Mount Zion and Jerusalem are MIXED or EQUATED? Why would that be? Well, I believe that it's because the city IS the mountain, and vice versa!

I really don't want to rain on your parade, because I can see how passionate you are about prophecy. I on the other hand, while being awed with the prophecies of the bible that have already come to pass in the bible, and knowing that there are dozens of promises still to be fulfilled (and they will be), prefer just knowing that Jesus died for my sins, and that He loves me with unconditional grace. The timing or method does not matter to me, just the assurance that through my faith, He will keep His Word.

[GoldenEagle]

The timing or method does not matter to me, just the assurance that through my faith, He will keep His Word.

My sentiments exactly Fez.