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Daniel's 7th week and ministry of Jesus


joi

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Roy

You need to look into manuscripts.

Here is just a short writing from Adam Clarks Commentary;

Quote: The Vulgate reads, Et erit in templo abominatio, "And in the temple there shall be abomination."

The Septuagint, kai epi to ieron bdelugma twn erhmwsewn, "And upon the temple there shall be the abomination of desolation."

So Dan 9:27 does mention "temple" It is also comfirmed by what Jesus says in Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken through the prophet Daniel (9:27). The holy place is within the temple.

So Jesus did not leave Israel desolate when He died on the Cross. Israel was already desolate by what the Pharasees taught. The 70th Week has not started.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, - Luke 3:23

[ This is a good read on the three and a half year ministry:

http://www.baptistboard.com/archive/index.php/t-29184.html ]

My question here is could the three and a half years of Jesus ministry have been the first part of the seventh week of Daniel?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Daniel 9:27

The death of Jesus caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Then He allowed Israel to become desolate and the Temple was desecrated.

Behold, I will send my messenger [John], and he shall prepare the way before me [Jesus]: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. - Malachi 3:1

(All scripture from BibleGateway)

I have my own argument for this not being the case; still I wonder IF . . .

I would be most interested in hearing some well thought out comments on the subject.

Hi joi,

I'm new here, but I wanted to offer a slightly modified view from what retro offered. Retro says that the 'he' of vs. 27 cannot be the prince that shall come. But I ask this question: "Where in Daniel 9 did it mentioned anyone other than the Messiah before that?" In Retro's case, Daniel just forces in a character that was not previously described to him as though he understood quite well who it was. In the case of my argument, the Messiah is the prince who shall come. And I will defend that argument.

To start, I want to offer up Jesus' parable of the wedding feast in Matthew 22:1-14.

"And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, "Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast." But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, "The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find." And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, "Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?" And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, "Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:1-14 ESV)"

Notice in the passage that the king, whom is obviously God, sends HIS troops to destroy the city, which is obviously Jerusalem. Then every other nation and city is invited to the wedding feast, which is the kingdom of God; or the Abrahamic Covenant. I want to bring up another parable:

""Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, "This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance." And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes"? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them." (Matthew 21:33-36, 38-45 ESV)

In a nutshell, Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the kingdom of God was going to be taken away from the Jews and be given to the Gentiles. The Gentiles would be blessed because of His servants. So, the Romans were the people of the Messiah. I know it sounds outrageous, but its true.

In the Middle East, when a king such as Nebuchadnezzar would set his image or ensign in a place he conquered, it meant that the dominion belonged to him. In the same way, when the first disciples were persecuted, they established churches in every place they fled to. This was Jesus setting up His ensign. This is even confirmed in Matthew 28:18, where Jesus says, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me..." So every nation that the church was established became the nation of God and His Son. But it was not so with Jerusalem. Jesus said to His disciples: "You are the salt of the earth. If the earth loses its saltiness, what good is it but to be trampled underfoot?" So, like when Sodom was only destroyed after Lot fled, Jerusalem was destroyed only after the disciples fled.

And one more thing about the seventieth week: The covenant that Jesus confirmed with many was the Abrahamic Covenant. And the many were the Gentiles. That is consistent in the parables and all throughout the Gospel. The Abrahamic Covenant stated that God would make Abraham's seed countless. In Revelation 7:9-10, we see that was fulfilled among the Gentiles. The Abrahamic Covenant stated that God would bless all families of the earth through him, and we find that fulfilled to this day among the many nations that are blessed because of the saints among the Gentiles.

"For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him." (Romans 10:12 ESV)

I know this post has been long. I just wanted to adequately defend my argument. Daniel 9:26 shows that the Messiah would be rejected and that God would send the Romans to destroy the city and sanctuary, which was fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 indicates that the Messiah would take the Abrahamic Covenant away from many of the Jews and give it to the Gentiles. That happened when the disciples were chased out of Jerusalem. From that point on, Jerusalem had 3.5 years left. During that time, Jerusalem would become a beacon for every wicked criminal, which Flavius Josephus records was fulfilled with John of Gischala. The war on Jerusalem lasted from 66 CE to 70 CE, approximately 3.5 years.

Edited by Bluefinger
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Shalom, joi.

Thank you Retrobyter.

You're welcome.

To the rest,...

Sorry, guys, but I'm going to bed. You weary me with the constant repeating of points we've already gone over.

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And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, - Luke 3:23

[ This is a good read on the three and a half year ministry:

http://www.baptistbo...hp/t-29184.html ]

My question here is could the three and a half years of Jesus ministry have been the first part of the seventh week of Daniel?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. - Daniel 9:27

The death of Jesus caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Then He allowed Israel to become desolate and the Temple was desecrated.

Behold, I will send my messenger [John], and he shall prepare the way before me [Jesus]: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts. - Malachi 3:1

(All scripture from BibleGateway)

I have my own argument for this not being the case; still I wonder IF . . .

I would be most interested in hearing some well thought out comments on the subject.

I believe as some others here do that the person in daniel 9:27 is not Jesus. Also to say that it is, would be taking scripture out of context. We must look at all of scripture. Let me use another part of scripture to make my point.

Daniel 11:21-45 (KJV)

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

25 And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

26 Yea, they that feed of the portion of his meat shall destroy him, and his army shall overflow: and many shall fall down slain.

27 And both of these kings' hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.

29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter.

30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.

40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.

43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I know this is alot, but I believe it's needed to understand daniel 9:26-27. These scriptures, espcially the bolded parts are talking about the same time period as daniel 9:27. As you read the text it is clear ( verses 22-23 for example ), that the behavior of the person who makes and breaks the covenant is not that of Christ. This person does things Christ would not do. I figured I would share these verses hoping it would add to the conversation.

May God bless you all

Firestormx

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Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I would like to point out that Daniel 11 is focused on kings that would rule Jerusalem. Control over Jerusalem went from Persia to Greece. From Greece, the control went to Egypt first (king of the South) then Syria (king of the North.) Focusing still on Jerusalem, we see that, after Antiochus IV, the Romans began to hit the scene. They took over Jerusalem not long after Syria lost control and gave the kingship to Herod. Herod died in Jerusalem not long after Jesus, the true king, came. Herod's rule (through his seed) lasted until Jerusalem was handed over to be destroyed (the great trial that caused Michael to stand up.)

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Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I disagree with you. I think to say that it is not talking about the end is a serious misreading of scripture. Verse 35 talks about the end. Verse 31 talks about the abomination that causes desolation and verse 22 calls this person the prince of the covenant, which is the anti-christ. There is no seperation in who the person is from verse 35 to verse 36. I disagree

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Maybe I'm just missing something here but what is the 'seventh week of Daniel'? Do you mean the seventieth week? I'm lost......... :confused:

I must have been lost to when I typed in seventh!

Good to know; I thought I was the ONLY one who gets lost during a typical day! :mgbowtie:

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Shalom, firestormx.

Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I disagree with you. I think to say that it is not talking about the end is a serious misreading of scripture. Verse 35 talks about the end. Verse 31 talks about the abomination that causes desolation and verse 22 calls this person the prince of the covenant, which is the anti-christ. There is no seperation in who the person is from verse 35 to verse 36. I disagree

Ever hear the statement, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Well, there's an axiom to this postulate: "When it comes to understanding prophecy, those who don't learn from history are doomed to THINK that we must repeat it." I would encourage you to read the actual history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes from secular history, Josephus' Antiquities, and some of the Apocryphal books, like Second Esdras and First Maccabees, particularly 1 Mac. 1:54. These works may not be canonical, but one CAN learn about history before making such blunders.

I encourage you to investigate history before thinking that the prophecies of Dani'el 11 aren't already fulfilled. Visit sites like http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/prophecy/daniel11.php. Please note that this is NOT my website, nor am I in any way endorsing all that you will find there; however, they have an excellent, very detailed review on how history has already fulfilled the prophecies of Dani'el 11.

And for those who think that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was an "antetype" of the "Antichrist," what good is a prophecy that could have more than one fulfillment?! How does one know if THIS "fulfillment" is THE "fulfillment" for which the prophecy was written?! NO! Any prophecy of Scripture MUST have EXACTLY ONE fulfillment, or the prophecy is no better than those of Jeanne Dixon or Nostradamus! The ONLY exception (which is not truly an exception) is in the case of "double reference"; i.e., a prophecy in which PART of the prophecy is fulfilled EXACTLY ONCE at one point in history while the rest of the prophecy is fulfilled EXACTLY ONCE at some other time in history.

In the book, Bible Prophecy for Blockheads, Douglas Connelly says on page 33, ...

"Techno-Speak: Double Reference

The term double reference is used to describe a Scripture passage in which part of the passage is fulfilled at one time while another part is fulfilled at a later time. Zechariah 9:9-10 is a clear example. Verse 9 was fulfilled during Jesus' earthly ministry; verse 10 will be fulfilled at Jesus' second coming."

That's not the same as saying that the verses about the "abomination" in Dani'el 11:31 can be fulfilled by both Antiochus IV Epiphanes and a future Antichrist! Sorry, it's one or the other, and Antiochus DID already fulfill this passage!

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Shalom, Montana Marv.

Firestormx

A point of information, as Roy will also point out; Dan 11:21-35 is referring to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the Syrian king. He is a proptotype of the Antichrist who is in our future. But verses 36-45 do refer to another king yet in our future. For the kings of the north and south engage him; then reports from the east (200,000,000 man calvary) and north (futher north-Russia) will alarm him.

But I agree with you, the "he" in Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I would also encourage YOU to continue investigating history and see that Herod the Great and Caesar Augustus fulfilled the rest of Dani'el 11, namely verses 36-45. You should go to the same website about which I just told Firestormx. If you can read it with an open mind and take the time to check the facts, you might just change your stance on verses 36-45!

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