WHO ARE THE TWENTY FOUR ELDERS

[franciskelsey]

Food for thought:

Learn the Bible in 24 Hours, Chuck Missler, Pg. 288

“Two things in that throne room are extremely significant: the lamp stands and the twenty-four Elders. The seven lamps of fire, which Jesus has identified as the churches which were on the earth in chapter one, are now before the throne in chapter four. Another prominent feature in chapter four is the appearance of the twenty-four Elders. These twenty-four Elders identify themselves as the kings and priests of the redeemed.

1 Chron. 24

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. [Rev. 5:9,10]

Thank you Joi. because this point has already been questioned (I understand, I rarely read an entire thread myself before responding), I am just going to post my earlier questions:

I could be wrong but it does seem that these thrones are given just as Jesus states, at the renewal of all things. We seem to get a clear picture of this well after Revelation chapter 4.

<< Revelation 20 >>

King James Version

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Than, if such is true, the twenty four thrones of chapter cannot be of the ones mentioned Matthew. Matthew 25:31 also implies this.

This has lead me through the Spirit to one more time take a real close look at Revelation.

This next verse is usually used as proof of the elders representing the saints of old and new.

Revelation 5

6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

(1) If this is correct, would not the four beast also be the saints, as they sing the same song?

(2) Why did the KJV use the word "us", when it is not found that way in the original nor do most translations translate it that way?

http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-9.htm It seems, as most translations put it, it should read more like this:

New International Version (©1984)

And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

thus removing the implication that the elders or beast were referring to themselves when singing this song.

(3) It seems that instead of the assumption the church is represented as the elders, that the church, the part that have been slain or are now gone from earth, are under the alter of God:

Revelation 6

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

(4) It seems to me the elders and the saints are always listed in contrast to each other rather than the same or together in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 7

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

(5) Last but not least for now, it seems the bible makes clear when it is the saints who are singing the songs.

Revelation 15

2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

I saw many other passages supporting the above statements in Revelation but will use if requested. Also interesting to note, other than Jesus, John only speaks at the beginning of Revelation as an angel relaying the messages to him. In Revelation, we find both an elder and an angel relating things to him. Are they the same? If not, are they both angels?

These are just questions as most certainly I have not concluded an answer. I just like to take away some possible answers to help come up with a good possibility.

thank you for replying. God bless Joi

[joi]

Seems I failed to post the rest of Misslers comment;

It is clear that these twenty-four Elders represent the redeemed. Only three personages in the Bible are kings and priests: Melchizedek, the Messiah, and His redeemed. The Elders represent the church in heaven.

Notice the sequence: the tribulation doesn't start until the Seven-sealed Scroll is opened. The Lamb doesn't receive the Seven-sealed Scroll until the Elders place their crowns on the glassy sea. And the Elders are obviously in heaven when that happens. Therefore, the church is in heaven before the wrath of God is poured out.”

francis, we each are working out things and asking God for His Revelation on matters that are presented to us on a daily basis. Enjoy finding your answers!

[Leonardo Von]

On 2/12/2013 at 10:41 PM, joi said:

Food for thought:

1 Chron. 24

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. [Rev. 5:9,10]

          Dear sister Joi,

          Grace and mercy and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

          Like you, I also want to feed the minds of our beloved brothers.

o   “And round about the throne [ were ] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.” (Rev 4.4).

Characteristics of the twenty-four elders:

o   They are clothed in white raiment -> The white robes are closely related to the followers of the Eternal (Rev. 3.4-5; 6.11; 7.9; 19.8.14) (His Bride), which represents the righteous acts of the saints (Rev. 19:8). These are those who have succeeded in being the object of the justice of the Eternal (through His Church - Matt 5: 6,10-12; 1 Peter 2: 18-21; 4: 21-19) instead of having to be disciplined by the world (1 Peter 2:20). Detail: we only dress someone who is without the cloth of justice of the world (that is, he is being victim of injustice).

o   With crowns of gold on their heads -> These crowns were not their conquests, but given to them by the Eternal:

o   “Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.” (2Timothy 4.8).

They received these crowns because they succeeded in achieving the victory proposed to them (see Heb. 12: 1). They are of gold because they did not overcome by their own strength, but by the Spirit of the Eternal (Zech 4.6). Hence it is incorruptible (1 Corinthians 9:25).

o   Seated on thrones -> That is, they have the authority to judge. The crowns here are not to reign, but to testify that they received the competence to judge righteously.

 

Let it be clear: Jesus is the King of kings and Judge of the Judges. The twenty-four elders compose the jury that will participate in the verdict of the Eternal. They are around the throne, with their backs to it, right after the beasts and the seven torches of fire, looking at those who are being judged.

They are the ones who knew better the ways of the Eternal, coming more intimately into their rest (Psalms 95:11; Heb 3:11,3,5,5). Now they can contemplate the Eternal without any cloud to blur the vision (as was the case with the High Priest upon entering the Holy of Holies - Lev 16:12, 13). They are more than judges: they are friends of the Eternal:

 

o   “Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.” (John 15.15).

 

But who are these elders? They are representatives of the Church. After all:

 

o   They are kings (they have a crown) and priests (they have a harp and golden salves full of incense - Rev. 5: 8), something that correspond to the Church (Rev 1.6; 5.10; 1 Pet 2.9).

o   They have a crown, which is promised to the victors who make up the Church (Rev 2:10; 3:11; 1Cor 9:25; 1Thess 2:19; 2Tim 4:8; Jas 1:12, 1Pet 5:4). Angel does not use a king's crown (they are fellowservant of the Church - Heb. 1:14; 19:10; 22:9), much less of winners (since they have never been tainted by sin).

o   The term elder (presbyter) was used to designate the leaders of Israel in the Testament of the Law and the oholyao’s supervisors in the Testament of the Favor of the Eternal (James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1, Acts 15:2,9). On the heavenly level, only the Eternal receives this title (Dan 7:9,13,22) or is seen as having such a characteristic (Dan 7:9; Rev 1:14).

Physically, the elders are individuals who feel the weight of age (changes in health and vigor) as well as are identified with their wisdom and experience (see Job 32.7), something that is proper only of humans.

The Eternal appears in this way because He made us in His image and likeness (Gen 1:25,26) and makes a point of showing in Himself the maturity to which we must all come.

o   What they receive from the Eternal have to do with the promises given to the Church:

o   “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [ some ] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Rev 2.10).

o   “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.” (Rev 2.26,27).

o   “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels..” (Rev 3.5).

o   “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.” (Rev 3.21).

o   The individuals are condemned or saved by looking at the Church (join these verses 2Corinthians 10:3-6, Ephesians 3:8-10, Heb. 12:1) In other words, as they look at the twenty-four elders who are the representatives of the Church, they will see a living testimony of what they ought to be, be ashamed because they have failed to attain this standard of purity and holiness and they will consider just the reward which they received from the Eternal.

 

Moreover, they are always seen praising the Eternal (it is not in vain that many associate the number twenty-four with the number of classes in which the priesthood was divided - 1Ch 24.7-18):

 

o   “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,” (Revelation 4.10).

o   “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [ and ] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.” (Revelation 5.8)

o   “And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [ and ] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.” (Revelation 5.14)

o   “And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,” (Revelation 11.16).

o   “And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.” (Revelation 19.4).

[Leonardo Von]

On 1/31/2013 at 11:39 AM, Littlelambseativy said:

The 4 beasts are angels and they cannot sit on the thrones. They are always around the Father's throne.

The additional 12 (other than the disciples) may come out of the gentile people and that is why they are not identified.

 

Dear sister Littlelambseativy.

Grace and mercy and peace from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Beloved sister, I am sorry to disappoint you, but the twenty-four elders are Israelites.

But, after all, what is the identity of these twenty-four elders? According to this description, there are two groups that fall into this category:

 

·        the twelve tribes of Israel, since the Eternal initially expressed His desire to make them kings and priests (Exodus 19.6). As we well know, the gifts and vocation of God are irrevocable (Rom 11.29). So much so that the name of the twelve tribes of Israel is written in the twelve gates of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:12).

·        the twelve apostles (Rev. 1.6, 5.10) which are the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14).

 

Together they number twenty-four elders.

That the twelve apostles make up the group of elders, it is enough to see the promise of Christ:

 

o   “And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19.28).

 

But what about the elders concerning Israel?

Although many servants of the Eternal stood out in the Testament of the Law, only twelve receive the seal of the Eternal (His name (Rev 14: 1) or His Spirit (Eph 1:13)):

 

1. Enoch - The Eternal took it for himself (Gen 5:24);

2. Elijah - The Eternal took it (2 Kings 2.3,5);

3. Abraham - The Eternal uses his name to sign His (Exodus 3:15);

4. Isaac - The Eternal uses his name to sign His (Exodus 3:15);

5. Jacob - The Eternal uses his name to sign His (Exodus 3:15);

6. Moses - The Eternal uses his name as an example of what it is to stand before Him (Jer 15:1);

7. Samuel - The Eternal uses his name as an example of what it is to stand before Him (Jer 15:1);

8. Noah - The Eternal uses his name as an example of righteousness (Ezek 14.14,20);

9. Daniel - The Eternal uses his name as an example of righteousness (Ezek 14.14,20);

10. Job - The Eternal uses his name as an example of righteousness (Ezek 14.14,20);

11. Joshua - The Eternal declared that he possessed the Holy Spirit (Num 27.18)

12. John the Baptist - In addition to being filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb (Luke 1:15), after Jesus was the greatest man born of woman (Matt 11.11, Luke 7.28).

 

You may ask: but there is also David. After Jesus, it is the most quoted name in Holy Scripture (Ps 51.11, Ez 34.23,24, Ps 3.5). However, there is a special role for David in the prophecies.

Together the twenty-four elders are the chosen ones of the Church who, having had direct contact with the Eternal (having intimacy with Him, hearing His voice and being guided and used by Him), were given the right to judge the Church and those who came of the Great Tribulation at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

Finally, who will judge who and why?

 

o   The Twelve Apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (both those who are part of the Church and those who came from the Great Tribulation). So they can see what Jesus is capable of doing, even under the rule of law, when one truly surrenders to Him. What they knew about the law was only the hypocrisy of religious leaders (see Gal. 2.14-20).

o   The twelve servants of the Eternal of the Testament of the Law, who wanted to see what the apostles saw and heard what they heard, but could not (Matt 13:17) will judge the Gentiles (both those who are part of the Church and those who came from the Great Tribulation).

Edited December 25, 2016 by Leonardo Von