When is Gog Magog war?

[Guest]

According to prechristian celtic legend, Gog and Magog are GIANTS that are the traditional gaurdians of London, A statue of this pagan god, GogMagog stands in the financial district of London....

Silly Brits

~

http://www.gotquesti.../Gog-Magog.html

The B-I-B-L-E

Now That's The Book For Me

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

Historically speaking, Magog was a grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:1-2 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.).

The descendants of Magog settled to the far north of Israel, likely in Europe and northern Asia (Ezekiel 38:2-3 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:).

Magog seems to be used to refer to "northern barbarians" in general, but likely also has a connection to Magog the person. The people of Magog are described as skilled warriors (Ezekiel 38:15; Ezekiel 39:3-9).....

.... It is important to recognize that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is quite different from the one in Revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea..

Below are some of the more obvious reasons why these refer to different people and battles.

1. In the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, the armies come primarily from the north and involve only a few nations of the earth (Ezekiel 38:6, 15; 39.2). The battle in Revelation 20:7-9 will involve all nations, so armies will come from all directions, not just from the north..... http://www.gotquesti.../Gog-Magog.html

[missmuffet]

According to prechristian celtic legend, Gog and Magog are GIANTS that are the traditional gaurdians of London, A statue of this pagan god, GogMagog stands in the financial district of London....

Silly Brits

~

http://www.gotquesti.../Gog-Magog.html

The B-I-B-L-E

Now That's The Book For Me

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

Historically speaking, Magog was a grandson of Noah (Genesis 10:1-2 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood. The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.).

The descendants of Magog settled to the far north of Israel, likely in Europe and northern Asia (Ezekiel 38:2-3 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:).

Magog seems to be used to refer to "northern barbarians" in general, but likely also has a connection to Magog the person. The people of Magog are described as skilled warriors (Ezekiel 38:15; Ezekiel 39:3-9).....

.... It is important to recognize that the Gog and Magog of Ezekiel 38-39 is quite different from the one in Revelation 20:7-8 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea..

Below are some of the more obvious reasons why these refer to different people and battles.

1. In the battle of Ezekiel 38-39, the armies come primarily from the north and involve only a few nations of the earth (Ezekiel 38:6, 15; 39.2). The battle in Revelation 20:7-9 will involve all nations, so armies will come from all directions, not just from the north..... http://www.gotquesti.../Gog-Magog.html

Yes,you can not mistake anything written in our favorite book hu?

[OneLight]

So you understand Greek then, One Light? Tell me then what is the difference between chilios and chilioi? Because there IS a difference. Chilioi as used in Rev 20 is not the same as chilios. One means one thousand (the number) and the other is a plural of uncertain affinity, meaning it could be one thousand or more. Since chilioi rather than chilios is used in Rev 20, my assertion that more than exactly 1000 is very possible.

I do not read nor write in Greek or Hebrew, but I do study the meanings of the words. So, though the spelling is different, you tell me ...

Chillias G5505

One Thousand in number, a chiliad.

Chilioi G5507

A cardinal number. A Thousand.

Now, a little more information.

The significance of this numerical term in Revelation 20:2-7 is much disputes. On the one hand, there are those who take this to be formally literal and understand it to represent a period of time lasting one-thousand years; they are called chiliasts. Those chiliasts who locate this period of time after the return of Christ are called premillennialists (a few of whom do not insist on exactly one-thousand years considering the expression of the figurative for a large segment of time). Those chiliasts who locate this period before Christs return as called postmillennialsts (represented by the liberal and the evangelical schools). On the other hand, there are those who take this to be essentially liberal and understand the thousand-year reign to represent ideally the present spiritual victory of Christ and His redeemed over this evil world system (Babylon); they are called amilllennialists or "nuncmillennialists" [now-millennialists]. The use of the expression "thousand years" itself does not require a formally literal interpretation. The literary genre' of the Book of Revelation is apocalyptic and as such uses numbers, places, personages, and its other elements primarily as symbols. [The Complete Word Dictionary - New Testament - edited by Spiros Zodhiates ThD.]

Saying that, we are to rightly divide His word through His Spirits guidance. Scripture is obvious where and when it uses symbols, as in "whose number is as the sand of the sea", referring to a number so great nobody knows. Yet, when scripture tells us of the two witnesses, it is two, the number, as in either dusin or duo. When it speaks of the time they will witness, one thousand two hundred and sixty days, the Greek says chilias diakosias hexEkonta hEmeras, meaning the exact time span. The idea that scripture, when speaking in terms of two thousand (dischilios), three thousand (trichilios), ten thousand (pentakischilioi), and so on, use the root Chilioi instead of Chillias, which bears weight on how we can view the millennium as a literal time.

Did I put to rest your concern about me?

[Bold Believer]

From what you wrote, One Light, you're beginning to get the picture. Chilioi and chilios are different; the one denotes an exact thousand, the other at least a thousand, but possibly more, hence it's described in Strongs as a plural of indefinite affinity. Post-millennialists (strict ones) tend to see the millennium as something man "brings in" or establishes. Other post-mils have differing understandings. I understand the millennium as Christ having reigned over the earth, through his people, bringing the message to the unbelievers. Christian societies were established, inventions built, and Christianity became pre-eminent (Isaiah 2) over all the other religions. At the end of Christ's reign, Satan was allowed to again have dominance, for a short time. This is the Gog-Magog war. It's spiritual in nature, but physical in scope. Satan is running the show behind the scenes. And that's where I believe we are now. This took two thousand years (and a little extra), which as I understand the word, fits the concept of chilioi rather than an exact one thousand years (chilios).

All we know absolutely about the Gog-Magog war is that it lasts for a brief period of time, "Mikros chronos," a little time (season). that could be 50, 75, 100 years. If it could be established just when the reign of Christ ended over the earth and Satan was released, that would be a lot easier, but God has not deigned to make that plain. My personal opinion is that it occurred about the time mankind harnessed nuclear energy and began to think of itself as godlike in the extreme (II Thess 2). Why do I believe that?

The former Christian nations began to wane after WW2, The US, England, France, stopped practicing Christianity, slowly at first, and then as time passed, abandoning it entirely in favor of humanist philosophy which places man in the position of a god. When you've harnessed 'the power of God', it's no wonder that you begin to think of yourself as God. All of Europe has fallen and America has almost completely as well. This is what Rev 20 describes...an ideological war, one side led by Christ, the other by Satan.

[OneLight]

From what you wrote, One Light, you're beginning to get the picture. Chilioi and chilios are different; the one denotes an exact thousand, the other at least a thousand, but possibly more, hence it's described in Strongs as a plural of indefinite affinity. Post-millennialists (strict ones) tend to see the millennium as something man "brings in" or establishes. Other post-mils have differing understandings. I understand the millennium as Christ having reigned over the earth, through his people, bringing the message to the unbelievers. Christian societies were established, inventions built, and Christianity became pre-eminent (Isaiah 2) over all the other religions. At the end of Christ's reign, Satan was allowed to again have dominance, for a short time. This is the Gog-Magog war. It's spiritual in nature, but physical in scope. Satan is running the show behind the scenes. And that's where I believe we are now. This took two thousand years (and a little extra), which as I understand the word, fits the concept of chilioi rather than an exact one thousand years (chilios).

All we know absolutely about the Gog-Magog war is that it lasts for a brief period of time, "Mikros chronos," a little time (season). that could be 50, 75, 100 years. If it could be established just when the reign of Christ ended over the earth and Satan was released, that would be a lot easier, but God has not deigned to make that plain. My personal opinion is that it occurred about the time mankind harnessed nuclear energy and began to think of itself as godlike in the extreme (II Thess 2). Why do I believe that?

The former Christian nations began to wane after WW2, The US, England, France, stopped practicing Christianity, slowly at first, and then as time passed, abandoning it entirely in favor of humanist philosophy which places man in the position of a god. When you've harnessed 'the power of God', it's no wonder that you begin to think of yourself as God. All of Europe has fallen and America has almost completely as well. This is what Rev 20 describes...an ideological war, one side led by Christ, the other by Satan.

Well, you start of your response is a bit off. This is not a beginning of my understanding of this subject. I have been, like you, studying it for years. Let's keep the personal insults out of the conversation.

Strong's is a lite study guide and I have turned from relying on it as a base for some time. That is one of the reason why I quoted the resource I use.

The main fault I find in your line of understanding is that what has been written to happen has not happened, where there is nowhere in written history to show that the events of the seals, trumpets and bowls has, as you claim, already taken place. Yet, you use the terms of "Christ having reigned" and "Satan was allowed" as if it has already taken place. This is not true.

It is up to you to point to historical facts when each of the seals, trumpets and bowls have happened, including when His believers were "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Since you claim we are wrong, show us with facts, not just words. To be honest, this has been asked of you many times and you have not done so. Let's end this once and for all and get to the facts.

[Guest]

From what you wrote.... you're beginning to get the picture.....

The Picture

Sir, we would see Jesus. John 12:21(d)

As I Can See It

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.John 14:6

Is Jesus Or The Byway

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

In Any Language One May Pick, You See

Love, Joe

[Guest]

It is up to you to point to historical facts when each of the seals, trumpets and bowls have happened, including when His believers were "caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Since you claim we are wrong, show us with facts, not just words. To be honest, this has been asked of you many times and you have not done so. Let's end this once and for all and get to the facts.....

Amen~!

~

Shake, Rattle And Roll

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Isaiah 13:6-13

LORD Have Mercy

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:25-29

Amen~!

[Bold Believer]

I meant the difference between chilioi and chilios, One Light.

If you want proof of the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowls, I suggest you read David Chilton's The Great Tribulation. It explains the relationship in detail. It's far too much to try and type all of it out here.

And as for the catching up...that occurs on the Last Day. It's a reference to the resurrection. Dead believers first, then live ones. Then the wicked. Some believers don't know that there are more references to 'like a thief in the night' in Scripture. Yet Peter mentions the same exact phrase in his brief treatise on the Last Day.

[OneLight]

I meant the difference between chilioi and chilios, One Light.

If you want proof of the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowls, I suggest you read David Chilton's The Great Tribulation. It explains the relationship in detail. It's far too much to try and type all of it out here.

And as for the catching up...that occurs on the Last Day. It's a reference to the resurrection. Dead believers first, then live ones. Then the wicked. Some believers don't know that there are more references to 'like a thief in the night' in Scripture. Yet Peter mentions the same exact phrase in his brief treatise on the Last Day.

No sir, you are making a judgment call against those who do not believe the same as you and you have to bring proof to support that accusation, not tell them to "go read a book".

As I said, this has been going on for a couple of years. You have been asked many time to provide proof and you have not. It is time to either provide proof or stop telling others their understanding the end times is wrong. List historical events of when the seals, trumpets and bowls have been fulfilled.

As for being caught up, this is also an argument you need to back up. If that means you have to copy and paste from another of your posts, so be it. It is time to put this all together in one nice package and get it over with.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

I meant the difference between chilioi and chilios, One Light.

If you want proof of the fulfillment of the seals, trumpets and bowls, I suggest you read David Chilton's The Great Tribulation. It explains the relationship in detail. It's far too much to try and type all of it out here.

And as for the catching up...that occurs on the Last Day. It's a reference to the resurrection. Dead believers first, then live ones. Then the wicked. Some believers don't know that there are more references to 'like a thief in the night' in Scripture. Yet Peter mentions the same exact phrase in his brief treatise on the Last Day.

I'm a student of both Greek and Hebrew, and the difference between "chilios" and "chilioi" is the first is singular and the second is plural, and this would be fine IF they were any other noun in Greek. HOWEVER, they are not "any other noun"; they are themselves a NUMBER! As such, they are adjectives, descriptive of a noun! OneLight was right to list what he did! Strong's says "chilioi" is a "plural of uncertain affinity," because normally the singular DOESN'T EXIST! Adjectives in the Greek always take the case, gender and number of the noun they modify, and in the case of Revelation 20:2-7, the phrase in each of the verses is "(ta) chilia etee!" "Etee" is plural, in the third declension (normally considered neuter), and in the nominative or the accusative cases. To reflect this, "chilioi" takes that third declension and the nominative case as does the definite article "ta." It's plural because "etee" is plural! Indeed, because it ALWAYS describes a plural noun, it is ALWAYS plural!

Can you find a case where "chilios" is used in Scripture? (NOT "chilias"; that's the feminine noun that is an ordinal number. I'm talking about a cardinal number.)

The number "chilia" doesn't mean "thousands"; it means many years, a "thousand" of them! Again, it's not singular or plural as we use our words "thousand" and "thousands," it's plural because "etee" is plural!