Salvation

[His_disciple3]

that makes them believers in their works or themselves, not the works of Christ, and I am not condemning you, only your gospel By the Word. , If I was condemning you. I would not be sharing the true Gospel with you. hoping that you can leave your salvation up to Christ where it belongs, not in that of yourself. salvation is a gift of God, we earn rewards not gifts, least ye boast, as these did in your verses But Jesus look at what we have done! the Word says that the gospel/salvation is a gift from God, grace through faith not that of works least we boast. if any man or angel comes to you with another gospel, which is not really a gospel, let them be accursed, the book says it is not of Works, you add works. to a gospel that is not of works, it is not I that condemns your gospel But rather the Word of God Itself

Ok, show me.

You said I added works to the gospel, as in working ones way to heaven.

Show me where I said that.

if I am not mistaken this is a quote from you in one of your post "Simple belief will not get one into the kingdom of heaven."

[saved34]

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:19,20

Ye see then how that by works is a man justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from teh beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7,8

If man said that "simple believe will not get you into the kingdom of heaven," it appears he is right. The Bible says the devils have that and tremble.

Simple faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is all that is needed to get one in the "Kingdom of heaven". If it is not, what other requirements are there? The Bible does not say the devils have faith, it says they believe (and know) there is a God. No devil has ever placed his trust in the finished work of Christ. The passages in James have been misconstrued and taken out of context beyond belief. Do you understand how man, many years AFTER God had already declared Abraham righteous that he offered up Isaac? James said that event showed that Abraham had true faith, a working faith, but God had already declared him righteous years before because he believed the promises that God gave him. In fact, even after that great event in Abraham's life, he lied and almost got a man killed because he said his wife was his sister. Yet, God did not bring one accusation against him. Salvation is completely apart from works, but salvation or simple faith produces works, there is a huge difference.

]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from teh beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This is another passage that is abused to no end. The thought in this passage is the practice of sin, not if a person sins. There is a difference. For you or I to say we are completely sinless is to lie and practice not the truth. Here is presented the truth that one who claims faith in Christ will not practice sin as his or her lifestyle. That word "doeth" in the greek means to "continue in without delay". A person claiming to have faith in Christ, yet enjoys the pleasures of sin, it his his daily practice without remorse, this person is of the devil. That verse is not teaching sinless perfection, neither is it teaching that salvation is not by anything other than Child like faith, trust, and confidence in the gift offering of the Lord Jesus Christ from God the Father himself.

Salvation is not a mixture of works plus faith, or Law and Grace. It is wholly of Faith, and by God's Holy grace through the price paid by Christ Jesus. Any man or woman who comes to him in simple faith, will never be ashamed. They can have full assurance that God will honor his word and save them.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--

Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Rom 4:3 What does Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.

Rom 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

[OneLight]

In scripture, we find many statements about salvation that appears to contradict each other, but they really don't.

• Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
  
  • Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
    
    • Romans 10:13 "For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
      

    [*]Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

    [*]James 2:19-20 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

    According to the above, people can easily be confused without looking further in scripture for an understanding. The full truth is found in Ephesians 2:8-10:

    "
    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
    it is
    the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    " ;

    which addresses all the scriptures above.

    By Gods grace, and His grace alone, came His Son Jesus to die for our sins so will may have salvation in and through Him. Our faith in Him is were we find salvation, so we read in Romans 10:13. Our works do not save us, but works are a sign of a saved person, for we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. Without salvation in Christ, we would have no good works. but only the works of the flesh, which are rejected, as we see in Matthew 7:21. As we continue to grow in Christ, it will be evident as we bear good fruit, which are good works, as we read in James 2:19-20, Philippians 2:12-13 and Matthew 24:13.

    Salvation is a continued walk in Christ, not just something that happened one specific moment in our life where we were first saved. That moment was the beginning of a new life in Christ, not the beginning and end of our salvation.

[Guest man]

These people believed.

Matthew 7

²¹ “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

²² Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

²³ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

These people fully expected to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

The text doesn't say these people were believers.

Let me try to explain.

Verse 21. Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord"......

A non-believer wouldn't recognize Jesus as Lord.

Verse 22. "Lord, Lord, have we not...........................in your name?"

A person wouldn't do works in the name of Jesus unless they believed that name or person held some sort of authority.

Verse 22 can almost be interpreted as argumentative. It's in the form of a question and starts out with, "Have we not". That's the

same thing as saying, "But look what we did". They're being rejected and all they can come up with is, "But look what we did for

you".

They fully expected entrance into the kingdom because of their works.

This isn't the only passage that mentions believers not making it.

The parable of the 10 virgins is a prime example of believers not making it into the kingdom.

The blind leading the blind is another one. Jesus said the followers of the blind would eventually fall into the ditch.

A false teacher isn't a nonbeliever in God. They are someone who teaches a twisted imitation of the truth. Homosexuals in

positions of authority within the church is one example. No one can deny that they profess a belief in Jesus, but can anyone say

with certainty that their place in the kingdom is guaranteed because of this belief? We seldom hear anything positive regarding

the Jehovah Witness doctrine, yet they're all believers. If all those people are saved because of their simple belief, why are their

teachings considered false? They're all going to heaven, what difference does it make?

Simple belief will not get one into the kingdom of heaven.

that makes them believers in their works or themselves, not the works of Christ, and I am not condemning you, only your gospel By the Word. , If I was condemning you. I would not be sharing the true Gospel with you. hoping that you can leave your salvation up to Christ where it belongs, not in that of yourself. salvation is a gift of God, we earn rewards not gifts, least ye boast, as these did in your verses But Jesus look at what we have done! the Word says that the gospel/salvation is a gift from God, grace through faith not that of works least we boast. if any man or angel comes to you with another gospel, which is not really a gospel, let them be accursed, the book says it is not of Works, you add works. to a gospel that is not of works, it is not I that condemns your gospel But rather the Word of God Itself

Ok, show me.

You said I added works to the gospel, as in working ones way to heaven.

Show me where I said that.

if I am not mistaken this is a quote from you in one of your post "Simple belief will not get one into the kingdom of heaven."

You are correct. Those words were taken from the quote above. Care to discuss the remainder of that post or is that the only error you found in my words?

[Guest man]

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:19,20

Ye see then how that by works is a man justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from teh beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:7,8

If man said that "simple believe will not get you into the kingdom of heaven," it appears he is right. The Bible says the devils have that and tremble.

In scripture, we find many statements about salvation that appears to contradict each other, but they really don't.

• Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
  
  • Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
    
    • Romans 10:13 "For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
      

    [*]Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

    [*]James 2:19-20 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

    According to the above, people can easily be confused without looking further in scripture for an understanding. The full truth is found in Ephesians 2:8-10:

    "
    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
    it is
    the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    " ;

    which addresses all the scriptures above.

    By Gods grace, and His grace alone, came His Son Jesus to die for our sins so will may have salvation in and through Him. Our faith in Him is were we find salvation, so we read in Romans 10:13. Our works do not save us, but works are a sign of a saved person, for we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. Without salvation in Christ, we would have no good works. but only the works of the flesh, which are rejected, as we see in Matthew 7:21. As we continue to grow in Christ, it will be evident as we bear good fruit, which are good works, as we read in James 2:19-20, Philippians 2:12-13 and Matthew 24:13.

    Salvation is a continued walk in Christ, not just something that happened one specific moment in our life where we were first saved. That moment was the beginning of a new life in Christ, not the beginning and end of our salvation.

    Both of you, thank you.

    Much appreciated.

[gdemoss]

A simple faith in Christ is all that is necessary to be saved because if you believe in the simplicity of Christ then you will do as Abraham did and pass the tests when your faith is tested. If we have washed our hands of the blood of Christ and have declared unto the world that he is in fact the Son of God and not guilty, then our works will reflect where our trust is. I learn about what is in my heart by what I do when I am put into certain circumstances or situations. I know that I believe and am in the faith through proving my own self daily. Jesus Christ is in me as I am not reprobate. I do not do those things which the reprobate mind consists of. I have been saved from them. If I say that I have placed my faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God who was without sin and not follow in his footsteps purifying myself even as he is pure, then I lie and do not the truth. If I obey not the truth but have pleasure in unrighteousness I full expect my end to be indignation and wrath poured out upon me. I do not bow my ear unto Hannibal Lector.

[Guest man]

The Bible does not say the devils have faith, it says they believe (and know) there is a God. No devil has ever placed his trust in the finished work of Christ.

A person claiming to have faith in Christ, yet enjoys the pleasures of sin, it his his daily practice without remorse, this person is of the devil.

That's what we've been saying.

Salvation is not a mixture of works plus faith, or Law and Grace. It is wholly of Faith, and by God's Holy grace through the price paid by Christ Jesus. Any man or woman who comes to him in simple faith, will never be ashamed. They can have full assurance that God will honor his word and save them.

Is this a lie?

James 2

¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Where is the benefit of having faith if it is dead? Dead faith equals no faith.

Works alone will not garner salvation and the same can be said of faith. The two need to work together. Just as faith without works is dead, so is works without faith. Works without faith is the focus of that passage from Matthew.

And before someone brings up the thief on the cross, that's not what's being discussed here.

[saved34]

I would suggest that it is you that is misinterpreting scripture, not me. James used the example of how the devils believe but aren't saved. I was responding to a comment that one is saved by simple faith. James shows us we are not, or the devils would be saved.

Butero, that is not what James was trying to show. Do you think it is sufficient to just believe there is a God in order to be saved? That is what he told his readers. He was simply pointing out that they do good if they say they believe in God, but if they show no works, that belief is nothing better than the same belief a devil would have. The scriptures have never attributed faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to a devil. That is the only way a man or woman can be saved, not by simply believing there is a God. He is not showing that one is not saved by Faith alone, but that faith is accompanied by good works. I think we agree on that so I don't know why you would act as if I did not say this in the very post you quoted. This is exactly what I said in post #85

Salvation is completely apart from works, but salvation or simple faith produces works

Abraham didn't lie about his wife. She was his half-sister. People have accused him of lying for as long as I can remember, but it is not true.

lol ok, he told a half lie. I really had no idea that there was even a controversy concerning Sarah really being Abraham's sister. Either way he was not completely truthful in the situation. She was his wife, and he withheld this truth from fear. She is called Haran's daughter in Law in Gen. 11, but I suspect this would be a good time to study Jewish customs and see if she was more of a cousin and called "daughter" or "sister" in a kinship sense.

If anyone is abusing the passage in 1 John, it is you. I just posted it, and I just accept it as written. You are the one arguing with God's Word.

But we both know you can't simply present scripture like that. You must compare spiritual things with spiritual. You cannot read a passage that seemingly contradicts another and just say, 'I accept it as it is". Scripture must be rightly handled or divided. The same book of 1 John had previously told you that any man who says he has not sinned, or that he has no sin, is deceived. All sin is willful in the sense that it is against God's will. That is why it is called sin. We both agree that the passage is talking about a person living in sin, practicing sin as his or her lifestyle. To say a Christian never willfully sins is to be either blind to our own short comings, or we are not totally understanding the nature of sin. Unless you are prepared to say that every sin you have committed since being saved has been in total ignorance.

The point of the scripture is to show that a true Christian doesn't practice wilful sin

Sin is self will. I do agree that true Christians do not practice sin as a lifestyle. Using "willful" is a bit misleading. I suspect you got that from Hebrews 10 which is not talking about typical sins of the flesh, but the ultimate sin of rejection of Jesus Christ.

You are saved by faith, but true faith brings about works.

Agreed

No change in behavior means no faith. No, you are not saved because of your works. Salvation comes through faith, but as the devils lack good works, so you know they are not saved, so it is with the person who claims to be a Christian.

Again, agreed, but here is where you and I must be careful. How much change in behavior must one have to show that they have "true faith"? How much good works, and for that matter, what type of good works show that a person has "true faith"? What happens if they sin? Are they to start all over? Or doubt that they are saved because there works are not perfect?

[Guest]

Faith

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

And

If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15

Works

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. John 15:12

What More Can A Bankrupt Sinner Give?

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

[OneLight]

In scripture, we find many statements about salvation that appears to contradict each other, but they really don't.

• Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
  
  • Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved."
    
    • Romans 10:13 "For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
      

    [*]Philippians 2:12-13 "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

    [*]James 2:19-20 "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?"

    According to the above, people can easily be confused without looking further in scripture for an understanding. The full truth is found in Ephesians 2:8-10:

    "
    For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
    it is
    the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
    " ;

    which addresses all the scriptures above.

    By Gods grace, and His grace alone, came His Son Jesus to die for our sins so will may have salvation in and through Him. Our faith in Him is were we find salvation, so we read in Romans 10:13. Our works do not save us, but works are a sign of a saved person, for we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. Without salvation in Christ, we would have no good works. but only the works of the flesh, which are rejected, as we see in Matthew 7:21. As we continue to grow in Christ, it will be evident as we bear good fruit, which are good works, as we read in James 2:19-20, Philippians 2:12-13 and Matthew 24:13.

    Salvation is a continued walk in Christ, not just something that happened one specific moment in our life where we were first saved. That moment was the beginning of a new life in Christ, not the beginning and end of our salvation.

    I pretty much agree with everything you said.

    We cannot be saved by works. If we could, Jesus had no reason to die. The works show our faith. I was reading through your post, all ready to disagree, and found myself nearly in total agreement. Perhaps it comes down to the way things are being said?

    Yes, how one chooses the words in their posts makes all the difference in what another will take from them. Proper communication is all so precious and vital. Unfortunately, many don't think about the words they choose to use and become upset when people disagree with what they posted, only to find that they agree when worded differently.